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Old 11-19-2012, 12:39 PM   #16
Bokaj
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I agree with Houdini. I don't back theories, if all official investigations clear a fight, its clear.

If Zora was taking a dive, it would have made more sense to just go, not fight extremely well. He gave Ali a nice match, and some difficulty.

Do I think he could have risen from the final knockdown? Yes. But most knockouts are a combination of hurting a fighter and breaking his spirit. It is possible, and indeed often necessary, to CONVINCE him to stay down. I find a consistent body attack to be the ticket, I'd imagine the sharp, quick, painful punches of Ali and his taunting style were his.
London, Blin, Foster and Coopman have all gone on record saying they stayed down to avoid taking more punishment. The same could possibly be said for Foreman and Moore as well.

Ali has few clean KO's for a fighter of his stature, but he could break a guy's spirit as well as anyone.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

Must admit this is the first time that I've heard of the Foley ko being questioned. As Johnmaff said,though - ALL of Ali's kayos were suspect !
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

March 1967

Zora Folley (Age; 35 years, 10 months)

The 6' 1" 202 lb. Arizona Heavyweight was considered to be a
legitimate challenger, despite his advanced age.

A very good techincal boxer, with a good straight right hand.

A 36 year-old Zora Folley would have defeated a 36 year-old Muhammad Ali.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

Foreman did not stay down to avoid punishment. What are you 13 years old? He was exhausted and KD for the first time in his career. He just missed beating the count.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Are you Pepe in disguise?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:40 PM   #21
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Finally, somebody who agrees with me on Machen... he had more imagination than folley. he didn't roll oiver and die vs Liston..he didn't win, but he had no fear of Sonny. He taunted Liston till the end. machen really won my respect in that fight.
Is Folley-Liston tough to find ?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Colonel Sanders

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:45 PM   #23
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Foreman did not stay down to avoid punishment. What are you 13 years old? He was exhausted and KD for the first time in his career. He just missed beating the count.
Perhaps. But I tink it's possible that he stayed that second extra to avoid more punishment in a fight he couldn't win. Just a thought and not meant as a slight on him. He was as brave as they come, I just think most sane minds are open to that kind of decisions. Besides the exhaustion and the pain, their health and perhaps lives are after all in the balance.

Bob Foster and the others I mentioned were all tough men, but they all admitted to staying down.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Is Folley-Liston tough to find ?
Kinda...it's not on You Tube, I know that.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Perhaps. But I tink it's possible that he stayed that second extra to avoid more punishment in a fight he couldn't win. Just a thought and not meant as a slight on him. He was as brave as they come, I just think most sane minds are open to that kind of decisions. Besides the exhaustion and the pain, their health and perhaps lives are after all in the balance.

Bob Foster and the others I mentioned were all tough men, but they all admitted to staying down.
The kind of knockouts that you can't, in fact, get up from are the rarest in boxing.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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The kind of knockouts that you can't, in fact, get up from are the rarest in boxing.
Posters here too often make it out like going up and receiving more punishment in a hopeless quest should be the most natural thing in the world for every pro fighter. Having sense doesn't mean you're not tough.

I have hard time thinking De la Hoya stayed down willingly against Hopkins, though. He was losing, but not being outclassed or beat up. He must have felt he still was in with a shot.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Posters here too often make it out like going up and receiving more punishment in a hopeless quest should be the most natural thing in the world for every pro fighter. Having sense doesn't mean you're not tough.

I have hard time thinking De la Hoya stayed down willingly against Hopkins, though. He was losing, but not being outclassed or beat up. He must have felt he still was in with a shot.
He was finished. He probably could have stood up, but he was frozen by a body shot; He was done. Had he gotten up to his feet, he'd have been totally impotent. That's probably why he stayed on the ground.

Body shots KOs, every single one of them, are a fighter quitting. You can always stand up. You are just in too much pain, too paralyzed by it, to be bothered.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

i think he didnt expect the second right and took it flush. that head spin is not from him trying to roll with it. instead taking the brunt of his head on the way back.

he was leaning away but ali caught him flush on the jawline.

also pretty weak at taking a punch.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

Zora Folley did 'crash' more than a few times from mediocre punches,
as in his 2nd-bout with Doug Jones.

Before entering the ring versus Cassius Clay, the (35 year, 10 month old)
had complied a 74-7-4 (40 KO's) record.

Though Zora was a capable fighter, his best days had long since passed
him by (1958 thru 1961).

But, Zora did still carry a good straight right-hand, as witnessed when
he dropped and defeated Argetninian Strong Man, Oscar Bonavena.

Zora, who had gone 11-0-1 (5 KO's) since his last loss in July 1963
versus Ernie Terrell - was riding a 3 1/2 year 'unbeaten streak'.

Victories over the likes of; Billy Daniels, George Chuvalo, Tod Herring,
Gerhard Zech, Oscar Bonavena, Bob Foster, Jefferson Davis 'twice', Henry Clark,
Floyd Joyner - and a Draw with Karl Mildenberger in Germany - certified
Zora as a 'worthy veteran challenger'.

Here in December 1962, 31 year-old - Zora is 'flattened' by 185 lb. Doug Jones in their rematch.

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Old 11-19-2012, 03:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

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Finally, somebody who agrees with me on Machen... he had more imagination than folley. he didn't roll oiver and die vs Liston..he didn't win, but he had no fear of Sonny. He taunted Liston till the end. machen really won my respect in that fight.
People today forget that Machen was fighting with one hand. His other hand was injured. Take that into account and what Machen did was truly impressive.

Getting eaked out by Liston while fighting one handed. Not bad at all
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