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Old 11-19-2012, 12:32 PM   #31
Bokaj
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

Funny thing is, I think it could have hurt him. Because Holyfield was next, and I think he'd straight up beat a Tyson coming in good shape. Of course, his fans would still make excuses for him. For most it would have been clear that a prime Tyson plain was beat, though. And that could hurt his standing.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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Funny thing is, I think it could have hurt him. Because Holyfield was next, and I think he'd straight up beat a Tyson coming in good shape. Of course, his fans would still make excuses for him. For most it would have been clear that a prime Tyson plain was beat, though. And that could hurt his standing.
Exactly. Upset losses hurt, but what hurts more is proving second best to your peers.

Beating Douglas on one haymaker means he probably continues to slide and slack, and he'd come off as Holyfields clear inferior. It'd absolutely hurt his standing worse.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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How many times do we have to hear people cite this bullshit in every Mike Tyson thread?
****. It took maybe a tiny bit more than simply not fearing Iron Mike to beat him.

Did Mitch Green fear him? Jose Ribalta? Razor Ruddock? Larry Holmes? Peter McNeeley?

These guys didn't fear Mike, yet they all got their clocks cleaned. He was a skilled destroyer, not a guy who just lucked out when his opponent didn't "fear him."

Besides, how many of his challengers legitimately feared him? Yeah, sure, maybe I do, or you do, but we're talking about world champions here. The cream of the crop.
I'm sure they'd be extremely nervous but do the elite ever really fear somebody?

I don't think so.
Holmes once said the only time he was scared before a fight was VS Tyson. He was frightened. But I get your point nevertheless. I think people mean that you have to fight Tyson to beat him, stand your ground.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

Bokaj & Magna have nailed this subject good and proper.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:13 PM   #35
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

You DID have to stand up to beat him.

The fighters who were intelligently aggressive and demonstrated real fortitude have a great record against Tyson. He had one approach. He was unable to say "Okay, I'll outbox you and move around you." No, he went at you and he beat your ass. Very men were ever able to do much about it but flat out run, hold, and survive. The fighters who stood to that and fought back had a ton of success.

It's absolutely valid, and a boxing truism. You can't beat a bully fighter if you let him bully you.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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Exactly. Upset losses hurt, but what hurts more is proving second best to your peers.
Perhaps in some cases, but I don't know if I'd agree across the board. I personally don't have a problem with the fact that Hearns was beaten by Hagler and Leonard. But I do think his record could do without the Barkley defeats. Dito in the case of Ali losing to Frazier, but also having the tarnishes of Norton and Spinks on there. In Tyson's case, dropping one to Douglas hurt his legacy to the extent where a lot of people pick him to lose to various greats, and use that specific performance as their basis. Had he fought a peaking Holyfield and lost in a great battle of epic proportions, then benefitted from the hindsite factor that Evander went on to being one of the division's best ever, I don't think it would have dented his resume in the way that the Douglas loss did.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:54 PM   #37
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Perhaps in some cases, but I don't know if I'd agree across the board. I personally don't have a problem with the fact that Hearns was beaten by Hagler and Leonard. But I do think his record could do without the Barkley defeats. Dito in the case of Ali losing to Frazier, but also having the tarnishes of Norton and Spinks on there. In Tyson's case, dropping one to Douglas hurt his legacy to the extent where a lot of people pick him to lose to various greats, and use that specific performance as their basis. Had he fought a peaking Holyfield and lost in a great battle of epic proportions, then benefitted from the hindsite factor that Evander went on to being one of the division's best ever, I don't think it would have dented his resume in the way that the Douglas loss did.
If he'd have lost in an epic, competitive battle, I agree.

I think Holyfield would have made it even worse and more one-sided then Douglas, if Tyson bailed his night out with that uppercut.

Tyson wasn't mature enough to look at that fight and go, Wow, that was close, I better buck up. He just wasn't a very bright, considerate fighter. The actual loss was good for him; It beat back the myth of his own power in his own mind for just a bit longer(Douglas got up!), and it gave him hunger and something to fight for. It also encouraged him to make quite a few staff changes that were all for the better; Had he escaped Tokyo with the W, he might have not bothered.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:05 PM   #38
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

Mentally Tyson was losing focus, if he had beaten Douglas (who only really impressed me in that fight) he would have lost to Evander or someone else who was not intimidated. In heavyweight boxing at the top level you need all of the edge you can get mentally to stay at the top of the Heep...
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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Wake up call, my ass.

Anyone who thinks that having a tough fight with Douglas and winning would have made Tyson abandon his wrong path, get on the phone to Kevin Rooney and Bil Cayton, and say "I need your help.Let's get back to where we left off." is indulging in fantasies, AND ignoring everything that happened before and since.

It might have made him think about training harder for Holyfield, but how much harder he would have actually trained ? Probably not enough.
Fantasy my ass. Getting embarrassed by a 42-1 shot would most definitely light a fire to Tyson's ass. It might not get Rooney back on the team but having a rubber in the corner for an enswell isn't likely going to fly any longer.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:43 PM   #40
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Fantasy my ass. Getting embarrassed by a 42-1 shot would most definitely light a fire to Tyson's ass. It might not get Rooney back on the team but having a rubber in the corner for an enswell isn't likely going to fly any longer.
Tyson was WAY too immature to take that lesson in stride. He never did anything in his career, made a single decision from day one to day done to prove that he had the career sense to make the appropriate lifestyle adjustments to learn lessons.

When the last semblance of the home he was raised in, Kevin Rooney, left the picture, Tyson went off the rails, and he never did rally back.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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I think if Tyson took the type of beating he took up until the 8th and Douglas didnt get up after the knockdown, it would have still prompted Tyson to get rid of Bright and go to Giachetti. Actually Don King would have most likely pushed for it, because King was going to be facing fighters he didnt have control over, like Holyfield. Holy was guaranteed a shot at Tyson next and was at ringside in Japan when Tyson got his butt kicked.
Yep. It's not like the media didn't have Mike's ear. I'm positive he'd hear negative rumblings about cutting Rooney off after 2 out of 3 abysmal performances. Giachetti would come in for sure.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:51 PM   #42
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Yep. It's not like the media didn't have Mike's ear. I'm positive he'd hear negative rumblings about cutting Rooney off after 2 out of 3 abysmal performances. Giachetti would come in for sure.
If Mike had the mind and the heart to make mature, focused changes to fix legitimate training and tactical problems, he'd have never gone to prison, not faded as fast, and quite probably gone down as the heavyweight GOAT, or damn close to.

He was a fine, fine fighter, but we don't remember him as loftily as Louis, Ali, and Holmes for a reason, and, in my estimation, this is it, in a nutshell.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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Tyson was WAY too immature to take that lesson in stride. He never did anything in his career, made a single decision from day one to day done to prove that he had the career sense to make the appropriate lifestyle adjustments to learn lessons.

When the last semblance of the home he was raised in, Kevin Rooney, left the picture, Tyson went off the rails, and he never did rally back.
You might be right but he did improve after every fight under Rooney. Obviously this is a totally different situation with Giachetti being brought in. Even with Giachetti on board Tyson would skip camp during the Ruddock fights. But I do believe with someone like Holyfield next and Foreman and Ruddock getting shots down the line, Tyson would shape up. He was immature but he wasn't dumb.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:02 PM   #44
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Default Re: What if Tyson beat Douglas?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
If Mike had the mind and the heart to make mature, focused changes to fix legitimate training and tactical problems, he'd have never gone to prison, not faded as fast, and quite probably gone down as the heavyweight GOAT, or damn close to.

He was a fine, fine fighter, but we don't remember him as loftily as Louis, Ali, and Holmes for a reason, and, in my estimation, this is it, in a nutshell.
Yep. He was a spoiled brat who didn't want to work hard anymore. I might have even done the same in his situation.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:27 PM   #45
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If he'd have lost in an epic, competitive battle, I agree.

I think Holyfield would have made it even worse and more one-sided then Douglas, if Tyson bailed his night out with that uppercut.

Tyson wasn't mature enough to look at that fight and go, Wow, that was close, I better buck up. He just wasn't a very bright, considerate fighter. The actual loss was good for him; It beat back the myth of his own power in his own mind for just a bit longer(Douglas got up!), and it gave him hunger and something to fight for. It also encouraged him to make quite a few staff changes that were all for the better; Had he escaped Tokyo with the W, he might have not bothered.

This is very true, and I commented on the need to get rid of men like Bright, Snowel and Halloway in an earlier post. The Douglas defeat resulted in the hiring of former Holmes' trainer rich Giachetti, who I think lit a fire beneath Mike's ass for at least a brief period.
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