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Old 11-19-2012, 09:55 PM   #31
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by NoNeck View Post
And he might've had some personal bias, considering that Wills got the best of him, basically. I'll wait. He doesn't represent the opinions of blacks.
Oh I see. Sam Langford might have had personal bias, but you of course
have NO BIAS ? Langford when asked who would win between Dempsey and Harry Wills when they signed for the bout, CHOSE Dempsey because
ole Tham was "biased", but YOU are free from bias in your choice...How noble of you NN...
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:29 PM   #32
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Oh I see. Sam Langford might have had personal bias, but you of course
have NO BIAS ? Langford when asked who would win between Dempsey and Harry Wills when they signed for the bout, CHOSE Dempsey because
ole Tham was "biased", but YOU are free from bias in your choice...How noble of you NN...
Where did I even give my opinon? The "expert" opinions consist of a bunch of white guys and a fighter who got his ass kicked by the man he picked against. I'm pointing that out and it's a legitimate.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:39 PM   #33
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Closer to his prime Langford beat and koed Wills. Later on Wills got the better of their bouts. Sharkey who fought both Dempsey and Wills stated Dempsey would win.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:46 PM   #34
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Closer to his prime Langford beat and koed Wills. Later on Wills got the better of their bouts. Sharkey who fought both Dempsey and Wills stated Dempsey would win.
None of that contradicts what I'm implying.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:51 PM   #35
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Interesting article written by Dempsey in 1963 for Ebony magazine.

“From the inception of boxing in this country it has been dominated by men who developed out of struggle with life. Our first real heavyweight champion, Tom Molyneaux, was born a slave in Virginia and won his freedom with his fistic talent. Fighting as a freedman in New York he beat all challengers and earned the right to be called the first American heavyweight champion.

All of the great old-time Negro boxers were born under poor and depressing circumstances but rose above their environments to win acclaim wherever they fought. Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, George Dixon, Joe Gans, the immortal “Old Master,” and Jack Johnson all knew what it felt like to be up against the wall and cornered. Their bitter experiences were reflected in their superb endurance and their toughness of spirit. Their early poverty showed itself in the way they handled themselves as men and boxers.

I am personally indebted to a number of Negro boxers who worked as my sparring partners in the years when I was learning how to handle myself in a ring. When I was fighting I had many Negro sparring partners at my training camp. One of these, Bill Tate, became one of my best friends. Now living in Chicago, Illinois, he is one of the finest men I have ever known. Then there was Panama Joe Gans, a great and clever fighter, who taught me a lot. The Jamaica Kid, a very fine heavyweight, worked with me before the famous 1919 fight with Jess Willard. The Kid did a lot to get me into the superb condition that enabled me to beat Willard and win the world’s championship.

Sam Langford, one of the greatest of all heavyweights, is another Negro fighter who showed me some tricks and gave me the benefits of his vast experience. I worked with Old Sam in Chicago when I was a youngster. I never forgot what Langford taught me. He was cool, clever, scientific and a terrific hitter besides a fine man.
Battling Gee and Battling Jim Johnson, both Negroes were also on my payroll as sparring mates. I was a pretty rough customer in those days and my sparring partners had to be good and tough to stay with me. All of these men more than made the grade.

Many times I’ve had the charge hurled at me that I was prejudiced against Negroes. It is time this utter fiction was laid to rest once and for all. All my life I have believed that all men are basically brothers and that differences of color and religion are superficial. I hate prejudice. I hate discrimination. I hate intolerance. Boxing has been guilty of its share of color bias but I categorically deny that I ever practiced it either as a fighter, manager or promoter. The several Negro fighters who have been under my management will testify to my long-held belief in equality of treatment for all men, regardless of color.

Since I am on the subject of the color line in boxing, let me clear the air of the many rumors and suspicions and charges that have been moving around me as a result of my failure to fight Harry Wills. I have never run away from a fight in my life. Ever since I left public school to work in the Colorado mines, my credo has been to fight all comers and may the best man win. Harry Wills was a great fighter in his prime and I would have liked to have been matched with him. But it was not to be. The reasons had nothing to do with color prejudice on my part (which I have never held), nor fear of Wills fighting skill. I wanted to fight Wills badly, but Tex Rickard, who had the final say, never matched us.

Rickard was a Texan. He had a rough time of it out in San Francisco, California, after the Johnson-Jeffries fight which he promoted in Reno. The repercussions of that fight swirled about Rick’s head for a long time after the fight and he was a victim of ugly charges and a wicked smear campaign. This experience soured him on mixed fights for the heavyweight crown. As a result he was never anxious to promote a match between Wills and myself.

The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn’t enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me. Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case.

When the Wills fight failed to materialize, Tex Rickard jumped back into the picture and matched me with Gene Tunney. The rest is history. And that is the real story behind the negotiations for the Harry Wills fight which never came off. I am sorry Wills and I never got a chance to square off in the ring. I am sure it would have been one beautiful scrap.”
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:24 PM   #36
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

good read
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:39 AM   #37
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Closer to his prime Langford beat and koed Wills. Later on Wills got the better of their bouts. Sharkey who fought both Dempsey and Wills stated Dempsey would win.
I don't doubt your point on Sharkey, however Wills closer to his prime beat Lamgford repeatedly and went unbeaten for 50 odd fights. It works both ways my friend. Cheers for all the replies btw guys, even if it was what expected most people to say, it's nice for the reassurance.

Last edited by Webbiano; 11-20-2012 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:52 AM   #38
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Untrue. Dempsey signed to fight Wills at least once, possibly twice. No evidence whatsoever that Dempsey did not want to fight Wills in fact he opening said he wanted to fight him.

Dempseys style and skill were ground breaking in boxing history. He was the hwt champion of the world for 7 years and was renowned as one of the greatest hwt champions of all time. You cannot say any of this concerning Wills. Anyone rating Wills and not Dempsey does not know what they are talking about.
The only reason Dempsey signed that fake contract is because Wills had sued the NY commision who were stripping Dempsey unless he signed for the fight. So Dempsey get's his friend Fitzsimmons to write up a bogus contract both men signed and Wills still didn't get to fight for the title because Dempsey

Dempsey had what 7-8 years to fight Wills his number 1 contender but only talked about Wills while signing for others, then said he wouldn't fight him ever, then was under threat of being stripped and still didn't fight him. He was constantly ridiculed in the press for fighting small men and oafs instead yet never tried to fight Wills

Dempsey might not have been champion for a year if he actually fought his number 1 contender. Wills overall beat better boxers than Dempsey in Langford, Fulton, McVey, Jeanette, Firpo, Kid Norfolk, which is why many who know boxing better than yourself rate Wills over Dempsey
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn’t enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me. Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case.

When the Wills fight failed to materialize, Tex Rickard jumped back into the picture and matched me with Gene Tunney. The rest is history. And that is the real story behind the negotiations for the Harry Wills fight which never came off. I am sorry Wills and I never got a chance to square off in the ring. I am sure it would have been one beautiful scrap.”
Ahh more of Dempsey's excuses, how about how we look at what actually happened instead?

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This report shows the timeline, including legal cases of Wills campaigning to get his shot.

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So let's get this straight, Dempsey or his management stalled and made excuses for years months. Dempsey says Wills will never get a shot at the title after Wills tries to get an injunction on Dempsey defending against Firpo. The commision is sued and forced to sanction the fight

On receiving a ruling amounting to stripping Dempsey of his title Dempsey (according to researcher Klompton) signs with a contract with person friend in Floyd Fitzsimmons for the Wills bout.

Wills is the second biggest draw of the era yet the 1 promoter Dempsey trusts and who financed the Miske fight can't get funds to promote the super fight of the era? Dempsey's cheque bounces yet the man suing him in Wills, check gets paid? It sounds an awful lot like step aside money

Years later Dempsey is on record as saying Fitzsimmons sued him for not honouring the contract. The following report on Fitzsimmons death though notes he was 'a life long friend of Jack Dempsey'.

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Conveniently Dempsey gets an out, is allowed to keep his title and fight other opponents. Why not find another promoter? It's either out and out avoidance from him or his management or powerful men been against a mixed race bout.
Wills said it didn't tie Dempsey into the fight in 1922. Interesting how it later 'fell apart' after been signed.....

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Wills sues Dempsey in 1931 for being shafted out of the title fight

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Dempsey had a promoter in Rickard who could have promoted it himself at any time

Not all offers/negotiations are publicised in business, but here's one:

200k offer

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More on the 200k offer

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I believe this is for a bout in London, so no need to worry about race riots, yet it still didn't happen for some reason....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
If you are Wills are you going to refuse to sign? Even if its meaningless? Why? So Dempsey can then say you refused to fight him?

Wills chased Dempsey across the country for seven years, not the other way around despite what you Dempsey worshippers might wish to believe.

Why did Wills sign? Because it was an easy $50,000 for nothing. Id sign my name to a contract anyone for $50,000.

Thats the point. It was payoff money. Thats what you dont get. The first time Wills and Dempsey signed it wasnt even a contract. That fact escapes you as well.

You realize that the "contract" you have seen photos of was signed in September of 1925 and stipulated that the bout wasnt to be held until a YEAR LATER. Right?

Have you ever seen a contract written like that, particularly in an era when promotions were abbreviated far more than today?

One month after signing the contract Dempsey's business manager quit Dempsey's services stating that he would not be a part of Dempsey's concerted efforts to break the contract. Dempsey quickly tried to deny the statement saying he intended to fight Wills.

November 1 Wills was paid the first payment of $25,000 promised by Fitzsimmons. Dempsey, Fitzsimmons friend, was not. Why?

Early the next year Wills was paid the other $25,000 and a month later Dempsey admitted that the $50,000 was money he paid. Despite having never recieved a dime from Fitzsimmons who spend several weeks with Dempsey in Los Angeles in early 1926. Sound like two guys who couldnt come to an arrangement?

While all of this was going on Rickard was actively planning a Dempsey-Tunney fight. Why, if there was ever a reasonable expectation of Dempsey fighting Wills? Doesnt that seem a bit optimistic when considering that Dempsey hadnt fought in 3 years and had stutter stepped past several proposed fights during that time? Hmmm.

At the same time as all of this was going on Dempsey was offered $500,000 by a group in Los Angeles to fight Wills there. Dempsey refused.

So you tell me: Dempsey couldnt find anyone to come up with the money to fight Wills? Dempsey signed a contract with his buddy Floyd Fitzsimmons to face Wills but got mad when Fitzsimmons couldnt pay him up front yet still pays Wills $50,000 of his own money AFTER Fitzsimmons had missed his payments to Dempsey and all the while he is negotiating for a fight with Tunney which actually did happen? Is that simple enough for you?

Do I need to spell it out that Dempsey paid Wills step aside money through his good friend Floyd Fitzsimmons so that he could continue being called champion and reaping all of the earnings that brought in outside of the ring and inside had he beaten Tunney as was expected.

You have a fanatical pro-Dempsey view which clouds any unbiased thinking in regards to this situation.

I dont need to fall back on something because there is a photo of Dempsey and Wills signing a contract because I know what that contract stated. It was well publicized. Read the New York Times or better yet the Chicago Tribune coverage of it. It was a hollow, meaningless document that was designed from day one to NOT be fulfilled.


We can go around and around about this but you have your belief, which is grounded in hero-worship, and I have mine which is grounded in what Ive actually read and seen. I doubt either will change the others mind.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:26 AM   #40
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

PP, taking bodies and names.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:05 AM   #41
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Absolute crap. It is an historical truth that Dempsey wanted to fight Wills. What Dempsey says in his own words in 1963 is exactly what occurred. Fighters don't in general choose who they fight...this is in the hands of promoters and managers. The fact that Dempsey in any way shook off the desires of his manager and promoter to Pursue a fight with Wills in an era where this just was not done is testament to his desire to fight Him. If you don't believe Dempsey read what Fleischer wrote concerning this subject. He was there during that time and knew Dempsey and Wills personally. Fleischer backs up 100 percent what Dempsey stated above. And don't pull any racist bs.....Fleischer was best friend's with Jack Johnson and wrote several books in praise of the forgotten great black hwts of the early 20th century. he rated Johnson, a black man, as the greatest hwt of all time. Langford was on that same let....Wills was not.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:19 AM   #42
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Thoughts?
I think Wills is below Dempsey and Langford who he started to dominate as Langford grew old ,and fat. I'm not sure I would put Wills above Jeannette or McVey either.
Johnson and Langford both picked Dempsey to beat Wills if the fight ever came off

Johnson questioned Wills resolve when the going got tough .

Dempsey v Wills? Dempsey by ko ,imo.

Last edited by mcvey; 11-20-2012 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:21 AM   #43
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Absolute crap. It is an historical truth that Dempsey wanted to fight Wills. What Dempsey says in his own words in 1963 is exactly what occurred. Fighters don't in general choose who they fight...this is in the hands of promoters and managers. The fact that Dempsey in any way shook off the desires of his manager and promoter to Pursue a fight with Wills in an era where this just was not done is testament to his desire to fight Him. If you don't believe Dempsey read what Fleischer wrote concerning this subject. He was there during that time and knew Dempsey and Wills personally. Fleischer backs up 100 percent what Dempsey stated above. And don't pull any racist bs.....Fleischer was best friend's with Jack Johnson and wrote several books in praise of the forgotten great black hwts of the early 20th century. he rated Johnson, a black man, as the greatest hwt of all time. Langford was on that same let....Wills was not.
H, don't knock yourself out defending the true facts. Some chaps on ESB
have a visceral dislike against Jack Dempsey that borders on paranoid
and facts are facts ONLY when it fit's their AGENDA...Dempsey was a "racist". Dempsey was even responsible for the bubonic plague that destroyed half of Europe in the middle ages. Dempsey was the real assassin of the Serb leader that started WW1...Didn't you know ?
Jack Dempsey is a pariah according to some posters and to argue with them can be debilitating as hell as I should know...Why of the thousands of fighters of the past do they SINGLE out Jack Dempsey for their hatred
is a question that only Freud can answer and alas he is dead...Cheers H
for carrying the torch of truth...
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:10 AM   #44
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Absolute crap. It is an historical truth that Dempsey wanted to fight Wills. What Dempsey says in his own words in 1963 is exactly what occurred. Fighters don't in general choose who they fight...this is in the hands of promoters and managers. The fact that Dempsey in any way shook off the desires of his manager and promoter to Pursue a fight with Wills in an era where this just was not done is testament to his desire to fight Him. If you don't believe Dempsey read what Fleischer wrote concerning this subject. He was there during that time and knew Dempsey and Wills personally. Fleischer backs up 100 percent what Dempsey stated above. And don't pull any racist bs.....Fleischer was best friend's with Jack Johnson and wrote several books in praise of the forgotten great black hwts of the early 20th century. he rated Johnson, a black man, as the greatest hwt of all time. Langford was on that same let....Wills was not.
The facts:

1. Dempsey turned down 200k to fight Wills, the offers were coming from London making the American commision irrelevant
2. Wills had to take the NY Commisson and Dempsey to the Supreme Court to force his status as mandatory challenger after Dempsey wouldn't agree to a fixed fight contract
3. Wills looked to force a fight by having an injunction against the Firpo fight.
4. Because of this Dempsey says he'll never fight Wills
5. Rickard says Dempsey will fight Wills the following October, nothing happens, Dempsey doesn't fight that year
5. The NYC Commission demands Dempsey to sign a contract after Wills successfully sues them
6. Kearns says Dempsey will only fight Wills if the commission financed the fight
7. Dempsey signs to fight Wills with his friend Floyd Fitzsimmons but renegades on it, it turns out the whole fight contract is a sham and there is evidence Dempsey. Dempsey instead fights Tunney who was the second opponent the commission would accept, yet Rickard was planning this fight before Wills-Dempsey fell through
7. No other attempt by Dempsey or his management is made to make the fight

Doesn't sound like the actions of someone wanting to fight Wills, it sounds like the opposite. If that isn't a duck I'm not sure you could accuse any fighter of ducking an opponent in history

Wills upset Dempsey by taking the case to the Supreme Court

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Last edited by PowerPuncher; 11-20-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #45
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

What you just posted is a complete distortion of what actually occurred. Dempsey himself had no issue fighting Wills...you can read the writings of whoever you want. Fleischer wrote extensively about this and he was friend's with both men. Huge distinction between what Dempsey wanted vs what Rickard and those managing Dempsey wanted. Langford who knew Wills from a boxing perspective like no other felt Dempsey would win and win handily, so did Fleischer. If you want a great trainers opinion Arcel who knew both men and watched them both from ringside termed Wills a "journeyman" and felt Dempsey would win easily. Wills actually was offered a fight with Tunney in 1925 with the winner to fight Dempsey and in fact Gene challenged him. Wills turned the fight down.
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