Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by red cobra

Finally, somebody who agrees with me on Machen... he had more imagination than folley. he didn't roll oiver and die vs Liston..he didn't win, but he had no fear of Sonny. He taunted Liston till the end. machen really won my respect in that fight.

People today forget that Machen was fighting with one hand. His other hand was injured. Take that into account and what Machen did was truly impressive.

Getting eaked out by Liston while fighting one handed. Not bad at all

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

People today forget that Machen was fighting with one hand. His other hand was injured. Take that into account and what Machen did was truly impressive.

Getting eaked out by Liston while fighting one handed. Not bad at all

It was his fearless attitude that impressed me the most. he didn't cower in fear vs Liston,...on the contrary, he taunted him throughout the fight and even after the fight. he just made up his mind that Sonny wasn't going to knock him out. If he were a bit bigger, he may have pulled off the upset, ala Clay/Ali.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Zora Folley did 'crash' more than a few times from mediocre punches,
as in his 2nd-bout with Doug Jones.

Before entering the ring versus Cassius Clay, the (35 year, 10 month old)
had complied a 74-7-4 (40 KO's) record.

Though Zora was a capable fighter, his best days had long since passed
him by (1958 thru 1961).

But, Zora did still carry a good straight right-hand, as witnessed when
he dropped and defeated Argetninian Strong Man, Oscar Bonavena.

Zora, who had gone 11-0-1 (5 KO's) since his last loss in July 1963
versus Ernie Terrell - was riding a 3 1/2 year 'unbeaten streak'.

Victories over the likes of; Billy Daniels, George Chuvalo, Tod Herring,
Gerhard Zech, Oscar Bonavena, Bob Foster, Jefferson Davis 'twice', Henry Clark,
Floyd Joyner - and a Draw with Karl Mildenberger in Germany - certified
Zora as a 'worthy veteran challenger'.

Here in December 1962, 31 year-old - Zora is 'flattened' by 185 lb. Doug Jones in their rematch.

The Folley-Jones fight is actually one of the best HW fights I've seen. Like Marquez-Barrera, only bigger guys and with a KO.

[Senor Pepe']

Bokaj,

That loss by Zora Folley (rematch with Doug Jones) actually knocked
Zora out of a rematch with Sonny Liston in late-1963 for the
Heavyweight Championship.

Zora was on the list, along with Ingemar Johansson for possible late-1963
challengers, after Sonny and Floyd fulfilled their rematch contract.

Zora, ran a streak of bad luck.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Bokaj,

That loss by Zora Folley (rematch with Doug Jones) actually knocked
Zora out of a rematch with Sonny Liston in late-1963 for the
Heavyweight Championship.

Zora was on the list, along with Ingemar Johansson for possible late-1963
challengers, after Sonny and Floyd fulfilled their rematch contract.

Zora, ran a streak of bad luck.

Zora didn't have the punch, chin or strength for Liston. It would be a repeat.

Jones had a great streak there, with his fights with Folley and Clay. But he took too much punishment in them, seems to never been the same afterwards.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by red cobra

It was his fearless attitude that impressed me the most. he didn't cower in fear vs Liston,...on the contrary, he taunted him throughout the fight and even after the fight. he just made up his mind that Sonny wasn't going to knock him out. If he were a bit bigger, he may have pulled off the upset, ala Clay/Ali.

Yup. Gutsy is the word. Forget size, I think with two good hands he could have pulled it off. He made Liston look ordinary with one hand.

[Senor Pepe']

Interesting,

That Yank Durham, did not want Joe Frazier fighting Zora in late-1966, as he
was worried about Zora's right hand crashing against Smokin Joe's chin.

Smokin Joe still had problems avoiding the right hand, and Zora had a good one,
when it landed.

Zora a class act, and would have been a real problem, for Cassius Clay in 1962 /1963.

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

vs. Liston I............Obvious Funny Business (Follow The Money)
vs. Liston II...........Fix, Fake, Fraud, Phony
vs. Patterson.........Legitimate (Floyd had a Bad Back Though)
vs. Chuvalo...........Legitimate (George was a fill-in replacement though)
vs. London............Legitimate (London Falls Down)
vs. Cooper.............Legitimate (Heres Comes the Blood)
vs. Mildenberger......Legitimate (Milton Berle was the #1 WBA Challenger)
vs. Terrell..............Legitimate (Though Many said Ernie was Over-Rated)
vs. Williams............Legitimate (A Shell of a Fighter, Literally Shot)
vs. Folley..............Legitimate (Give the Old Guy a Chance)

.


Oh, ok. So not 1 of Ali's fights were on the up and up against a 'live' opponent. NOT ONE


Any kid coming onto this forum is gonna have a fuckin shock reading this

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Interesting,

That Yank Durham, did not want Joe Frazier fighting Zora in late-1966, as he
was worried about Zora's right hand crashing against Smokin Joe's chin.

Smokin Joe still had problems avoiding the right hand, and Zora had a good one,
when it landed.

Zora a class act, and would have been a real problem, for Cassius Clay in 1962 /1963.

Sooooooooo............Ali gives an old man a chance yet 6 months earlier Yank Durham doesnt want any part of Folley???

Is this what your saying?

What am i talking about? Of course its EXACTLY what your saying.


So, whats your thoughts on Fraziers avoidance (according to you)of old man Folley?

[D9Garrard]

Even Pepe' should acknowledge that there weren't many "worthy" challengers in that time period. Bad intersection between downhill veterans and not-quite ready upcomers.
I didn't think Folley was much better or worse than the alternatives.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

.


Oh, ok. So not 1 of Ali's fights were on the up and up against a 'live' opponent. NOT ONE


Any kid coming onto this forum is gonna have a fuckin shock reading this

I said they were all legitimate, except the 'two' Sonny Liston bouts.

Just because the Challengers were 'flawed', doesn't mean anything, other than
they were 'flawed'. The bouts were legit though..

[TheSouthpaw]

No he got his ass knocked out far and square!...

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

I said they were all legitimate, excep the 'two' Sonny Liston bouts.

Just because the Challengers were 'flawed', doesn't mean anything, other than
they were 'flawed'. The bouts were legit though..

But SP, thats a backhanded compliment. Its no good saying they're legit then go on to deride every one of those challengers as 'too old', 'bad back', etc etc....

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by D9Garrard

Even Pepe' should acknowledge that there weren't many "worthy" challengers in that time period. Bad intersection between downhill veterans and not-quite ready upcomers.
I didn't think Folley was much better or worse than the alternatives.

This is a fair enough statement

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

But SP, thats a backhanded compliment. Its no good saying they're legit then go on to deride every one of those challengers as 'too old', 'bad back', etc etc....

It may be 'back-handed', but the statements are true.

Ernie Terrell was the 'best opponent', and the most honest fight
for the 'fans' off that list.