Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Absolute crap. It is an historical truth that Dempsey wanted to fight Wills. What Dempsey says in his own words in 1963 is exactly what occurred. Fighters don't in general choose who they fight...this is in the hands of promoters and managers. The fact that Dempsey in any way shook off the desires of his manager and promoter to Pursue a fight with Wills in an era where this just was not done is testament to his desire to fight Him. If you don't believe Dempsey read what Fleischer wrote concerning this subject. He was there during that time and knew Dempsey and Wills personally. Fleischer backs up 100 percent what Dempsey stated above. And don't pull any racist bs.....Fleischer was best friend's with Jack Johnson and wrote several books in praise of the forgotten great black hwts of the early 20th century. he rated Johnson, a black man, as the greatest hwt of all time. Langford was on that same let....Wills was not.

H, don't knock yourself out defending the true facts. Some chaps on ESB
have a visceral dislike against Jack Dempsey that borders on paranoid
and facts are facts ONLY when it fit's their AGENDA...Dempsey was a "racist". Dempsey was even responsible for the bubonic plague that destroyed half of Europe in the middle ages. Dempsey was the real assassin of the Serb leader that started WW1...Didn't you know ?
Jack Dempsey is a pariah according to some posters and to argue with them can be debilitating as hell as I should know...Why of the thousands of fighters of the past do they SINGLE out Jack Dempsey for their hatred
is a question that only Freud can answer and alas he is dead...Cheers H
for carrying the torch of truth...

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Absolute crap. It is an historical truth that Dempsey wanted to fight Wills. What Dempsey says in his own words in 1963 is exactly what occurred. Fighters don't in general choose who they fight...this is in the hands of promoters and managers. The fact that Dempsey in any way shook off the desires of his manager and promoter to Pursue a fight with Wills in an era where this just was not done is testament to his desire to fight Him. If you don't believe Dempsey read what Fleischer wrote concerning this subject. He was there during that time and knew Dempsey and Wills personally. Fleischer backs up 100 percent what Dempsey stated above. And don't pull any racist bs.....Fleischer was best friend's with Jack Johnson and wrote several books in praise of the forgotten great black hwts of the early 20th century. he rated Johnson, a black man, as the greatest hwt of all time. Langford was on that same let....Wills was not.

The facts:

1. Dempsey turned down 200k to fight Wills, the offers were coming from London making the American commision irrelevant
2. Wills had to take the NY Commisson and Dempsey to the Supreme Court to force his status as mandatory challenger after Dempsey wouldn't agree to a fixed fight contract
3. Wills looked to force a fight by having an injunction against the Firpo fight.
4. Because of this Dempsey says he'll never fight Wills
5. Rickard says Dempsey will fight Wills the following October, nothing happens, Dempsey doesn't fight that year
5. The NYC Commission demands Dempsey to sign a contract after Wills successfully sues them
6. Kearns says Dempsey will only fight Wills if the commission financed the fight
7. Dempsey signs to fight Wills with his friend Floyd Fitzsimmons but renegades on it, it turns out the whole fight contract is a sham and there is evidence Dempsey. Dempsey instead fights Tunney who was the second opponent the commission would accept, yet Rickard was planning this fight before Wills-Dempsey fell through
7. No other attempt by Dempsey or his management is made to make the fight

Doesn't sound like the actions of someone wanting to fight Wills, it sounds like the opposite. If that isn't a duck I'm not sure you could accuse any fighter of ducking an opponent in history

Wills upset Dempsey by taking the case to the Supreme Court

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[HOUDINI]

What you just posted is a complete distortion of what actually occurred. Dempsey himself had no issue fighting Wills...you can read the writings of whoever you want. Fleischer wrote extensively about this and he was friend's with both men. Huge distinction between what Dempsey wanted vs what Rickard and those managing Dempsey wanted. Langford who knew Wills from a boxing perspective like no other felt Dempsey would win and win handily, so did Fleischer. If you want a great trainers opinion Arcel who knew both men and watched them both from ringside termed Wills a "journeyman" and felt Dempsey would win easily. Wills actually was offered a fight with Tunney in 1925 with the winner to fight Dempsey and in fact Gene challenged him. Wills turned the fight down.

[McGrain]

The idea that Dempsey wanted the fight but was unable to get it because of management is as insulting as anything else that's been written about him in this thread.

[Hands of Iron]

Burt, that's your cue to mention race riots, etc.

[lufcrazy]

Dempsey probably wasn't scared of wills but he could have forced the fight if he really wanted to.

He was practically king of the world when he was champ. It'd be like wlad saying blue wants to fight povetkin but his management won't let him. Ludicrous.

[HOUDINI]

No it is not. What you are saying goes against written history from that period. Once again the writings of Fleischer are very clear in this regard. Thinking that Dempsey could change promoters fears and alter the tide of the times in order to make the fight is revisionism in it's worst form. Read the true story as it was written at that time....not various snippets in an effort to weave your own story!

[Colonel Sanders]

interesting thread it turned out to be

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders

interesting thread it turned out to be

You haven't seen anything.

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Burt enters the thread wanking his 90yo wrinkly cock over a 50s poll rating Dempsey as the best ever in 3-----2-----1



Do you have links to these articles/sources?

Originally Posted by Pachilles

Burt gon' verbally scissor kick you mother fuckers in the dome when he sees this

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Why do you have to insult me PP ? I am old enough to be your father,and when I was your age, I would have taken you to the woodshed and given you a well deserved spanking...I try to be civil with you, but to no avail...You are so BRAVE to pick on a senior citizen 3000 miles away... ESB
is so proud of you...

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

I think most sane people on here have already deduced that PowderPuff is one of life's great loser's - I think once he's grown out of his nappies he'll probably come to realise this himself - all in good time

Originally Posted by manbearpig

Shut up SplitNose you short arsed little fuck.

Powerpuncher's comment was hilarious to be fair. This is an internet forum.

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Until he says those vile things to your dad or grandad...Luf so easy to laugh this off when YOU aren't affected...

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

McNobrain strikes again

Originally Posted by McGrain

I have no idea why you are attacking me. I said pp shouldn't be attacking Burt. I can't see how I should be subject to one of your weird little verbals. I was laughing at nightcrawler's "steaming shit" remark.


I seem to remember you got a ban for this nonsense a few weeks back.

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

Well if it happens ahead of people starting things by throwing around obscene and absolutely shockingly disrespectful insults at elders and then others positively encouraging people doing that then there is something VERY VERY wrong somewhere - you should have enough brain power to figure that out so do yourself a favour stop making it look like your backing up the assholes on here else your more likely to get the chop than me - if the people who run this board are sane adults with any real sense of justice that is

Originally Posted by McGrain

Buddy, fuck off.

I said pp shouldn't be doing that, THEN i laughed at a joke someone who hadn't said anything negative about Burt said. Then you waded in.

If you're upset because I said I like Powerpuncher, there's nothing I can do about that, I like Powerpuncher.

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

There you go instantly resorting to F-Words be mccareful mcnobrain

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

Originally Posted by Pachilles

lets dance Joe Pesci

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Is Joe Pesci a pretentious hipster? Take another look at that picture you googled, freak. I'm a lot better looking.

[LittleRed]

I wouldn't be part of any other boxing forum.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

I wouldn't be part of any other boxing forum.

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

You are a very VERY VERY sad bearfacedpig - you seriously need to get a life and the people looking after this forum would do well to get rid of you for good in my book - and you can take that as coming from the primary source of one of your peers

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

Funny how some talk about 'bias' on this forum when the usual suspects ACTUALLY PUT UP A SERIES OF THREADS IN A 'BIAS' DIRECTLY AGAINSTCERTAIN FIGHTERS (VERY VERY THINLY VEILED I MIGHT ADD)

Originally Posted by Pachilles

you've got abit of foam on your lip, bra

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Don't be disingenuos, who in their right mind would say that Jess Willard would beat Ali in a 15 round fight.? No sane poster would say that.
Sir, it is YOU who are BIAS, and your ludicrous assertion proves that...

Originally Posted by McGrain

Gene Tunney makes that pick in the link you didn't bother to click on.

This place has went a bit nuts, I think.

Originally Posted by El Bujia

Shut up, you gay.

Originally Posted by manbearpig

McRain. SICK BURN.

Originally Posted by DigMona

I read an article where Tunney picked Dempsey to beat Marciano, Walcott and Charles on the same night.

The guy was a total troll.

Originally Posted by Pachilles

Im not no malnourished 15 year old, string bean, pot dealer, Karate Kid. Windswept haired, hipster ass, Daniel Larusso fighting style having mother fucker

Originally Posted by McGrain

I forgot about how mental things were going there for a little while on here.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

No it is not. What you are saying goes against written history from that period. Once again the writings of Fleischer are very clear in this regard. Thinking that Dempsey could change promoters fears and alter the tide of the times in order to make the fight is revisionism in it's worst form. Read the true story as it was written at that time....not various snippets in an effort to weave your own story!

I don't think Dempsey was scared of him but he undoubtedly could have done more to male the fight had he so desired.

[HOUDINI]

That is not true based on the events as they happened when they happened. It's well written about by those that were there at that time! Why speculate and make up your own story?

[orriray59]

I'd have Dempsey and Wills around the same. You often see Jack get ranked within the top 10 for some reason.

Am I the only one who thinks Mike Tyson is clearly superior to Dempsey? In terms of resume and accomplishments?

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

That is not true based on the events as they happened when they happened. It's well written about by those that were there at that time! Why speculate and make up your own story?

I don't know quite who you are talking to, but PP's story is supported almost entirely by primary sources - people who were there at the time - he linked a lot of them. They've been linked on this forum many times.

All you've produces is a copy & paste job of an article by the fighter under discussion interviewed many years after the event.

As far as credibility goes, he's an absolute street ahead of you.