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Old 11-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #31
MagnaNasakki
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Some may have given Louis quite a bit of trouble. Lee Q Murray was 6'3 210lb Boxer Puncher he had the full package, he would have been a handful for Joe...but Murray was at times too aggresive and had trouble with counterpunchers, I think Louis would trap murray midway through the fight and finish him off. but not after visiting the canvas once or twice.

Lem Franklin would get knocked out and knocked out early, because he would not outslug Louis...but franklin had more firepower than any of Louis challengers since Max Baer, and had the goods to dump louis on his back multiple times...Franklins defense was wide open and even if he tags louis, louis will tag franklin more often and that will be it. Franklin though would have been louis most dangerous title challenge ever in 1941 with franklin off that huge winning streak.

Jimmy Bivins? match already happened in 1951, 37 year old Louis jabbed bivins to death, won easy decision and hurt him a couple times.

Louis vs Elmer Ray- Louis actually knocked Ray out in a exhibition in 1948. I went over this matchup many times, Ray had the punching skills to knock Louis out, the long arms to land big punches at long range, and inside fighting skills to swarm all over him, but ultimatley he did not have the durability to handle Louis punches and that would be his downfall. Ray is the best out of all these opponents though, while Murray was 2nd best.

Thompson with his left hook and short crouch, he could give louis problems the way galento did...but thompson was not skilled, Louis will get up off the floor and rain down on turkeys parade..Jabbing combinations setting traps turkey didnt have the skills to handle any of this.

Harry Bobo would be a good fight, but he was a bit made for Louis. A 6'4 standup slugger, if he lands he is going to hurt louis, but this kind of style Louis creamed during his career...louis will pick Bobo apart and bobo despite strength and punching power, he lacked jab to keep louis off him. louis would do damage on bobo with his short hooks.



Now despite me picking louis over all of them, if he fought them all in a row I expect at least one of these punchers to crack louis chin for a upset early kayo before louis wins rematch. Louis missed out on fighting some real dangerous punchers.
I agree 100% with your analysis, especially your giving Murray a great shot. I consider him the possible Buster Douglas Louis didn't get to fight, and I get ridiculed in NYC for it regularly.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Using the the color line really meant three things if you ask me.

1 ) Starting with the obvious, the fighter was black.

2 ) He wasn't a big draw.

3 ) He had very good ability.

Louis fought two black men in his record 20+ title defense. The first was John Henry Lewis. John Henry was a friend of Joe Louis, and was ill. The fight was given to him because he needed the money. John Henry Louis was past his best when he fight happend.

The other fighter was Walcott, who at that time was something of a fringe contender ( non top ten ranked by ring magazine ) in the early 1940's...at least I think. I am too lazy to look it up right now.

Elmer Ray was close to getting a title shot, then Louis people saw him KO someone at Madison Square Garden in NY, and steered clear of the match.

In the context of using the color line, Louis like a few other champions is guilty. However, I do not think he avoided clear #1, #2, or #3 contenders as Jack Johnson did. Jack Johnson had big time offers to fight Joe Jeanette, Sam Langford and Sam McVey as champion but balked.

As a footnote I do believe if a champion is offered enough money, he'll fight anyone. But each champion has their own price.
Jim Jeffries would not defend against Jack Johnson for any price ,and he many times publicly stated so.
Sunny Jim Coffroth and Barney Curley the two biggest promoters in the US at the time , both stated that two blacks fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw flies.
The NSC in Covent Garden London, with Peggy Bettinson acting as their chairman/matchmaker offered Johnson just 3,000 to defend against Langford .
Langford fighting Jeannette in Paris , never made big money, his biggest career purse was for a bout with Iron Hague ,a mixed black and white match.
Johnson took out full page adverts in several major newspapers offering to defend against anyone ,for any promoter who could come up with a $30,000 purse. This is a matter of public record ,and easily checked and proved. Here is a link confirming Johnson signed to fight Jim Flynn for
$ 31,000 no one was interested in a mooted Johnson McVey fight.

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This offer ,below made by C B Cochrane , for Johnson to defend against Langford in London fell through, it was 6.000 to the winner 2,000 the loser.It was made in 1914, six years after Burns received $,30,000 for defending against Johnson.
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By the way Jim Jeffries offered the winner of the Burns/Johnson fight a title defence against the winner of the Al Kaufman v Jim Barry, Johnson said should he win , his first defence would be against Langford.

Joe Woodman could not come up with the $$ binding fee, and the offer from the NSC was derisory.

Johnson agreed to fight Langford in Paris after he beat Moran , the purse was for $30,000 the offer fell through.

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Burns said ,if he beat Johnson he would fight whoever came up with the biggest purse.

If Jeffries thought a Johnson v Langford title fight would have made money, would he not have promoted that instead of offering a match with either Kaufman or Barry?

You will note that both Kaufman a Barry were white.

If Langford,Mcvey,and Jeannette were box office draws, how come they spent so much time globe trotting?

McVey had over 60 of his 90 fights outside his own country.
Langford around 60.
Jeannette nearly 30.
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The $$$ was in black /white defences when Johnson was champ.

Why the hell do you think the White Hope era started in the first place?

Do you think the White public wanted to replace Johnson with another black man?

Last edited by mcvey; 11-20-2012 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

Mcvey....great post and historically accurate. In defense of Jeffries however it was expected that he would not defend his title against a black man. It was the American tradition (for the lack of a better term) for hwt champions not to allow the hwt championship to fall into the hands of a back challenger. Lots of implications in the racist world of the early 20th century if a black were to be called the man who can beat all others in the world. It took Burns, a Canadian, to finally give Johnson a shot in 1908 but he went against the white majority who begged and threatened him not to do so. On the other side of the coin, as already mentioned, there was a tide of progressive thought that was pushing heavily for Johnson to get a title shot but the old guard stood firm.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:31 PM   #34
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

Just for fun, here's what could be read in The Milwaukee Journal in November 16, 1946.

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The title reads : Elmer proves not so violent. They talk about his fight against Jersey Joe and how both men would not stand a chance against the Brown Bomber... We know what really happened with Walcott, but we have to guess with Ray. I know it would've ended with a KO.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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Originally Posted by Cachibatches View Post
It is well accepted that Jack Johnson drew the color line agaisnt Langford and the rest of murder's row, but it seems that Loius gets a pass for not fighing many worthy black fighters.

I know that Louis fought John Henry Lewis, and eventually, Jersey Joe Walcott. But why did he not fight other guys mentuioned on the "NO Joe Loius" thread like Lem Franklin, Turkey Thompson, Harry Bobo, Elmer Ray, and Lee Q Quarry?

How would these fighters fair agaisnt Loius. How would/did they fair against Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. Though they were essentially from a different era, for reference, how would they have done agaisnt Marciano?
I think Roxborough, Black ,and Mike Jacobs drew the $$$$ line.
I doubt Louis would duck anybody ,he certainly had no problems with giving those who gave him a tough first go round another shot.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:30 PM   #36
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
This Thin Black man is almost impossible to beat at the bump. But I haven't given up yet...yet.

Don't give up, young Padawan, you may just do it yet, maybe.......maybe
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Mcvey....great post and historically accurate. In defense of Jeffries however it was expected that he would not defend his title against a black man. It was the American tradition (for the lack of a better term) for hwt champions not to allow the hwt championship to fall into the hands of a back challenger. Lots of implications in the racist world of the early 20th century if a black were to be called the man who can beat all others in the world. It took Burns, a Canadian, to finally give Johnson a shot in 1908 but he went against the white majority who begged and threatened him not to do so. On the other side of the coin, as already mentioned, there was a tide of progressive thought that was pushing heavily for Johnson to get a title shot but the old guard stood firm.
Johnson with the Jeffries fight all signed ,states he will fight Langford but he wants a guarantee [ Nov1909 ]. below.


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JOHNSON says he will defend against Jeannette for $30,000 Billy Gibson offers $20,000.

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Johnson said he would fight Jeannette for the McMahon brothers, but the authorites vetoed it.

Last edited by mcvey; 11-22-2012 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:00 PM   #38
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Johnson with the Jeffries fight all signed ,states he will fight Langford but he wants a guarantee [ Nov1909 ]. below.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]----#

JOHNSON says he will defend against Jeanntte for $30,000 Billy Gibson offers $20,000.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Johnson said he would fight Jeannette for the McMahon brothers, but the authorites vetoed it.
The link below confirms this.

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