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Old 11-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #76
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Burt....beautifully well said. Really can't understand why the lay fan would want to change history. I can see writers who are keen to get readership reinventing history but why the average fan? Possibly the writers are influencing the young fan today with revisionist articles? They need to know that the writers know what they are purposefully doing and they are being used.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:27 PM   #77
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Burt....beautifully well said. Really can't understand why the lay fan would want to change history. I can see writers who are keen to get readership reinventing history but why the average fan? Possibly the writers are influencing the young fan today with revisionist articles? They need to know that the writers know what they are purposefully doing and they are being used.
Much like those egghead historians trying to sully the history of Manifest Destiny and the conquest of the American West. Or the founding of the Great Country that is the USA.

Happy Thanksgiving, Yanks.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:21 PM   #78
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Nonsense...The hundreds of top boxing trainers, reporters, fighters who saw the prime Jack Dempsey fight ringside, knew aeons more than you CP.
It is YOU SIR, who is spouting fairy tales asserting that you, seeing some bad clips of Dempsey pre Tunney and against Tunney when Dempsey was out of the ring for THREE years, come to the conclusion that Dempsey was a stiff...Ninety years later you somehow know more than the esteemed
writers who wrote about Dempsey the next day after his fights, and raved about his prowess and savagery...But you SOMEHOW are to be more credible than they are !!!
You say memory is not reliable...Well the people who saw Dempsey fight wrote about him the next day after the fights...
One other thing...I saw Ray Robinson fight as a WW in his prime a couple of times in the 1940s, and though 60 years have elapsed since those fights
I still BELIEVE he was the best fighter I ever saw.Though by your standards
my memory isn't reliable. Nonsense...Dempsey by all who saw him before his 3 year layoff was considered a killer in the ring with unique qualities
of power, speed and ruggedness, who would be a handfull for any
heavyweight who ever lived...Live with that fact...cheers...
...so what were the opinions of blacks involved with boxing? That question has gone thoroughly unanswered (other than the Langford cop-out).
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:28 PM   #79
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Dempsey Wills is ye olde Roy Jones-Dariusz Michalczewski.
But with great racial undertones!
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:29 PM   #80
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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...so what were the opinions of blacks involved with boxing? That question has gone thoroughly unanswered (other than the Langford cop-out).
NN ,your childlike post doesn't deserve a response, and if old Tham was around he would take you to the woodshed, calling the brave Sam Langford a "cop-out". What is ESB turning into ?
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:37 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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NN ,your childlike post doesn't deserve a response, and if old Tham was around he would take you to the woodshed, calling the brave Sam Langford a "cop-out". What is ESB turning into ?
Right, racism didn't exist 90 years ago. I guess the opinion of a black guy who was Dempsey's pal and got his ass kicked by Wills is all we have to go on, then.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:44 PM   #82
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

So what if they picked Dempsey to win by ko?

That doesn't give him an assumed victory nor does it give him a better resume than wills.

Like wlad and vitali today, like palomino and Cuevas, like Jones and michalczewski, like other times in history the era was shared and the champion was heavily disputed.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:56 PM   #83
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

McVey posted this only a few weeks ago.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Jack Johnson opines that Dempsey would have beaten Wills, but Wills would have beaten Johnson.

Of course, when ever two outstanding fighters meet, boxers, trainers, ect. often differ as to who will win; and even when there's concensus, the concensus is sometimes wrong.

However, the question of whether any other blacks favored Dempsey over Wills has been floating around. [Of course, it's pretty easy to deconstruct anything one's arguing against, ex., Johnson was jealous of his black heavyweight successors, that's why he's trashing Wills, ect.].
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:09 PM   #84
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Champion was not in any way disputed! Dempsey was the champion and everyone was very aware of the issues that prevented Wills getting a shot at that title. Unlike today where there are potentially 5 champions in every division and fans are used to that idea (incredible) there was a keen understanding back in those days that to be a champion you must beat the champion. Dempsey nearly killed Willard and he was and was considered the champion until he was beaten in 1926 by Tunney. Certainly you can find progressives during the 20's that felt for Wills and wanted the challenger to get his title shot and may have been saying all sorts of things to try to make it happen. That movement at that time was not strong enough to make the men who controlled hwt boxing to change their mindset.

Also to call Langford a cop out is really insulting. He was possibly the greatest pound for pound fighter ever and he knew Wills better than anyone....don't forget that closer to his prime he knocked Wills cold several times. Sam stated that he would pick Dempsey if they had fought and this was said in 1922 not many years later. He also stated that Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen....harder punching than Jeffries and faster than Corbett. You need to know boxing history to understand the strength of that endorsement. It's a great testament to just how great Dempsey was as a fighter.

We all know racism was everywhere back in those days and really that's what we are saying prevented Wills from getting his shot. Rickard called the shots and controlled hwt boxing in those days and he was not going to let Wills or any black fighter have a chance at the title. He saw what happened when Johnson was champion and the aftermath of his bout with Jeffries. Dempseys job was to fight...not to manage himself or promote fights
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:22 PM   #85
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Champion was not in any way disputed! Dempsey was the champion and everyone was very aware of the issues that prevented Wills getting a shot at that title. Unlike today where there are potentially 5 champions in every division and fans are used to that idea (incredible) there was a keen understanding back in those days that to be a champion you must beat the champion. Dempsey nearly killed Willard and he was and was considered the champion until he was beaten in 1926 by Tunney. Certainly you can find progressives during the 20's that felt for Wills and wanted the challenger to get his title shot and may have been saying all sorts of things to try to make it happen. That movement at that time was not strong enough to make the men who controlled hwt boxing to change their mindset.

Also to call Langford a cop out is really insulting. He was possibly the greatest pound for pound fighter ever and he knew Wills better than anyone....don't forget that closer to his prime he knocked Wills cold several times. Sam stated that he would pick Dempsey if they had fought and this was said in 1922 not many years later. He also stated that Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen....harder punching than Jeffries and faster than Corbett. You need to know boxing history to understand the strength of that endorsement. It's a great testament to just how great Dempsey was as a fighter.

We all know racism was everywhere back in those days and really that's what we are saying prevented Wills from getting his shot. Rickard called the shots and controlled hwt boxing in those days and he was not going to let Wills or any black fighter have a chance at the title. He saw what happened when Johnson was champion and the aftermath of his bout with Jeffries. Dempseys job was to fight...not to manage himself or promote fights
Ofcourse it was disputed that's why they had the coloured championship. Jack never once unified with the coloured champion.

He also took 3 years off so calling him a champ during that time is a bit worthless.

Yes he beat Willard who was inactive as hell and pretty ****, but he never fought the fellow champion of his day which was wills.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #86
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Boxing in those days can't be looked at as you are from today's perspective. Dempsey was the worlds hwt champion...Wills was the black champion...that was that...no question of uniting anything because they were considered separate and distinct from one another.

You cannot lose the hwt championship or any true boxing championship unless you lose it in the ring. Not fighting for long stretches was very common and In those days making money via exhibitions and appearances. Corbett did theatre, Dempsey went to the movies.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:47 PM   #87
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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You have no idea what you are talking about.

Boxing in those days can't be looked at as you are from today's perspective. Dempsey was the worlds hwt champion...Wills was the black champion...that was that...no question of uniting anything because they were considered separate and distinct from one another.

You cannot lose the hwt championship or any true boxing championship unless you lose it in the ring. Not fighting for long stretches was very common and In those days making money via exhibitions and appearances. Corbett did theatre, Dempsey went to the movies.
Why should the white champion be held in greater esteem than the black champion? especially when that black champion has beaten better men than the white champion.

The point is moot, two champs who didn't fight each other. Neither was undisputed.

Yeah like I said, call him the champ all you want during Hollywood but it's just a notional title that's worhtless.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:48 PM   #88
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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no question of uniting anything because they were considered separate and distinct from one another.
No question? I can post about 50 articles from major periodicals of the time that raise more than a few questions regarding this issue.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #89
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

The hwt championship that Dempsey held was considered totally separate vs the black title. You are looking at this historical situation from the eyes of today's boxing scene. It was not looked upon in that way back in those days. That title was looked upon as continued from Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, hart, burns, Johnson, Willard and finally Dempsey. There was no thought of unification as you are implying from today's standards. As mentioned you can find progressives that were writing all sorts of things but that does not change the absolute fact that the title Dempsey held was considered undisputed and separate from the black title....like oil and water. There was a push to give Wills a title shot but not for the purpose of unifying titles. Wills was leading contender and the progressive movement in the us was clamoring for the black man to get his just due.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:14 PM   #90
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

More evidence that this is the worst boxing board on the Internet. Tremendous mis information and miss interpretation of history.
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