Kessler and Froch fans are pathetic!! - Page 15

BatTheMan · 11-22-2012, 05:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Loudon

The point is, America is the home of boxing, and Andre doesn't have to travel. It would be nice if he did, but he doesn't have to. At the moment Andre isn't making huge money, but he will do soon.

That's some odd logic. Ward should not fight abroad because he will be rich in the future.

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Are they that desperate for money, that they'd put Chad in a situation like that? Have you read Iceman John Scully's comments. He's a member on here, and hemadesome very interesting comments. I don't know John personally, but I've read a lot of his posts, and seen countless interviews and articles on him over the years. I don't think it's a straightforward as what you think.

I know about Scully and he is very respected. Also by me. Not for this though. He basically said that if the fighter said he felt great he was not the one to stop him. In other words he would not protect the fighter from himself.

I strongly disagree with Scully.

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Was it a knockdown? Or was he out cold?

Depends on who you believe. Scully or team Miranda and the others present.

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I bought it on Dawson's confidence, and I don't think Shaw would sell him out, and put him in a dangerous position to make a quick buck. It wouldn't make sense for him to do that.

What could he do? Had the fight not gone ahead, Dawson would have been a laughingstock in the industry.

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I'm no expert, but when I made a case for Roy, I got all sorts of names thrown at me.

So can't think of any. Thank you. Case dismissed.

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If he does move up, it will be for a new challenge.

Regards, Loudon

Yeah. But who? LHW sucks. SMW blossoms and is littered with big earners.

BatTheMan · 11-22-2012, 05:34 AM

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Originally Posted by TI99/4A

Yes, you're spot on. It reminds me of that too. I recall watching Mayweather/Cortez v Hatton and it was very similar to Ward/Reiss v Kessler, and Ward/Smoger v Froch.

You cannot bring your personal referee to a foreign country. That's a key reason as to why Ward has lost his passport.

dendy · 11-22-2012, 05:49 AM

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Originally Posted by BatTheMan

You cannot bring your personal referee to a foreign country. That's a key reason as to why Ward has lost his passport.

Exactly - i never got the impression that referees in europe would allow for some of the stuff ward does. I think that he will be forced to fight more on the outside and not be allowed to smother and hit on the break etc.

Ward is great on the outside too but the problem for him will be that he will obviously be in a position to be hit more often, plus he will have to work harder. I have a feeling he is packing an average chin and relys more on not being hit. If kessler does catch him it would be the end.

Bottom line is a ref from europe wouldn't have allowed for the mess the first fight became.

aliviu_emilian · 11-22-2012, 06:05 AM

I have another perspective.I said Kessler fights noones right now and a lot of people jumped to shut me.I don`t agree with the fact Kessler did fight big fights and now he can afford to rest.Is a common thing that you`re equal to your last fight.He could choose to fight either Bute and now Froch in their backyards with a big belt on the table but he has chosen somebody else every time.

Regarding Ward, was SO OBVIOUS HE WAS PROTECTED.Yes, he did beat Kessler and Froch but on American soil. Yes, he is not obliged to go anywhere but this could go to the reasoning it`s not sure he would remain unbeaten if he leaves the continent or either the country.

Loudon · 11-22-2012, 06:56 AM

[quote=BatTheMan;14250760]

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That's some odd logic. Ward should not fight abroad because he will be rich in the future.

What's your logic? You want him to fly to Denmark and England to fight guys he's beaten easily? I didn't say he shouldn't fight abroad. I said at the moment, he doesn't need to. It would be nice if he fought Carl in England, but he's just outclassed him, less than a year ago.

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I know about Scully and he is very respected. Also by me. Not for though. He basically said that if the fighter said he felt great he was not the one to stop him. In other words he would not protect the fighter from himself.

Scully came on here just after the fight, and he said something happened half way through camp, but he couldn't divulge what it was. He wasn't referring to Miranda I don't think, I'll have to read it again. I'd love to know what happened.

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Depends on who you believe. Scully or team Miranda and the others present.

Yes, there's different stories around. It'll come out at some point.

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What could he do? Had the fight not gone ahead, Dawson would have been a laughingstock in the industry.

Lots of fights have been cancelled late on. If he was that bad, they could have made an injury up. His career and his health was at stake as well as Shaw's investment.

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So can't think of any. Thank you. Case dismissed.

What are you asking me for? 7 pounds exactly? or fighters going from 175 to 168? I agree with you. It's hard, and I know Roy went through hell. But the fight was seen as an even fight on the assumption that Chad wasn't drained. Obviously it was a big assumption. But if, he could have made the weight with no problems, it had the potential to be a good fight, based on styles. I appreciate it was a big if. Like I say, when Chad was oozing confidence in interviews and Shaw didn't kick up a fuss, I thought we were going to get a good fight. Let's just hope Chad rebuilds himself, and Andre rematches him, if he moves up.

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Yeah. But who? LHW sucks. SMW blossoms and is littered with big earners.

Fair point, but does he seek a new challenge, or fight guys that he's beaten already? The Super Six is over, he won easily, will he be motivated to fight these rematches?

Regards, Loudon.

moneypaysbills · 11-22-2012, 07:07 AM

Alright Loudon,

Some great posting going on nice work. I have to agree with you especially on your last point regarding Ward going up to 175.

TheBATMAN is wrong 168 is not blossoming apart from the emergence of Groves, with Ward fighting relics from a previous era. He'd be better going up to 175 because it is a different game. He'll be fighter bigger guys who might come in at fight night at 185lbs.

He is known to be a soft puncher so it will take all of his skill to win his matches. I still believe the Dawson fight was a joke even if Chad agreed to it because he was a drained zombie at 168.

At 175 Ward can fight the real Dawson, cleverly and Hopkins all of whom would pose a much greater threat than Pavlik a fighter who as you know I've never rated. Due to age I'd pick Ward over BHop but Cleverly's work rate and Dawson's ability at a comfortable weight would be a great challenge for Ward and will help him cement his legacy.

If he challenges for Cleverly's title it would have to be in the UK if he didn't hold a belt but if he won Dawson's belt first then the fight should be in Vegas or Atlantic city. So to conclude I think there's not much left for Ward at 168 and if he wants to enter the HOF or be an ATG he needs to get up to 175 and even if it's a weaker 175 era than times past he'd still get recognition from many including me for stepping up to an uncomfortable weightclass and challenging the best

Loudon · 11-22-2012, 09:03 AM

[quote=moneypaysbills;14251047]

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Alright Loudon,

Some great posting going on nice work. I have to agree with you especially on your last point regarding Ward going up to 175.

Hi pal, nice to hear from you.

Bat makes some good points, and I respect his opinion, but Like you I think 175 presents a bigger challenge now. I think Andre will stay at 168 just a little longer and see what happens with Froch/Bute/kessler. I'm hoping that Mayweather can kick start Andre Dirrell's carrer. If you could get Dirrell fit, with a strong mindset, he's a nighmare for anyone, including Ward. He's fast, slick, he's a southpaw, and he's a great fighter. But he's lacking mentally, and obviously he's been inactive.

But I think Andre will move to 175 within the next 18 months.

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TheBATMAN is wrong 168 is not blossoming apart from the emergence of Groves, with Ward fighting relics from a previous era. He'd be better going up to 175 because it is a different game. He'll be fighter bigger guys who might come in at fight night at 185lbs.

I agree. I think it's blossomed, and Andre has come out on top. Yes he could unify, but I think it depends what happens in the next 6 months. There's no huge names at 175, but there's good fights to be made. A rematch with Chad at 175 would be good. Like you say, he'd have to alter his tactics slightly at 175.

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I still believe the Dawson fight was a joke even if Chad agreed to it because he was a drained zombie at 168.

That's fair enough, and Bat agrees. I guess I was taken in. But my thinking was, if nobody thought Chad had a chance of making weight safely, and they thought there was a high percentage of him being hurt etc, then surely they wouldn't have signed? That was my interpretation.

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At 175 Ward can fight the real Dawson, cleverly and Hopkins all of whom would pose a much greater threat than Pavlik a fighter who as you know I've never rated. Due to age I'd pick Ward over BHop but Cleverly's work rate and Dawson's ability at a comfortable weight would be a great challenge for Ward and will help him cement his legacy.

I'll be honest with you, I think he'll miss Hopkins. I think Hop wants one more fight before he calls it a day. I hope I'm wrong, but if this was 2010, I think we'd already have heard from Hop regarding a potential fight with Andre. I don't think he's got long left. I can't see Andre up at 175 until late next year at the earliest. I think Hop will be gone by then. Unless he looks good earlier next year and they can have a catchweight if Hop's interested. But does he believe he could beat Andre? He's not normally this quiet.

Also, Hop hasn't looked that great in his last few fights, and Andre wouldn't get much credit. I like Clev, and that would be a good fight. Dawson with a few wins under his belt, and his confidence back could pose a big threat at 175.

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If he challenges for Cleverly's title it would have to be in the UK if he didn't hold a belt but if he won Dawson's belt first then the fight should be in Vegas or Atlantic city. So to conclude I think there's not much left for Ward at 168 and if he wants to enter the HOF or be an ATG he needs to get up to 175 and even if it's a weaker 175 era than times past he'd still get recognition from many including me for stepping up to an uncomfortable weightclass and challenging the best

I agree. There's potentially some good fights, with a clash of styles at 175. Apparently he has to fight the winner of Kessler and Magee, so we'll see what happens. I thought he'd have a lay off after the Super Six and then moved to 175. But he's been injured, and now I think he's just thinking things through.

There are some good fights out there for him. I understand that 175 isn't littered with star names, but what more can he do at 168? Is he bothered about unifying the division against a guy he's easily beaten? I think he will regret not fighting Bute. But at the time, I don't blame him for not taking the fight. Maybe some of the other 168 guys could move up to 175? It's going to be interesting.

Regards, Loudon.

moneypaysbills · 11-22-2012, 11:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Loudon

Hi pal, nice to hear from you.

Bat makes some good points, and I respect his opinion, but Like you I think 175 presents a bigger challenge now. I think Andre will stay at 168 just a little longer and see what happens with Froch/Bute/kessler. I'm hoping that Mayweather can kick start Andre Dirrell's carrer. If you could get Dirrell fit, with a strong mindset, he's a nighmare for anyone, including Ward. He's fast, slick, he's a southpaw, and he's a great fighter. But he's lacking mentally, and obviously he's been inactive.

But I think Andre will move to 175 within the next 18 months.

I agree. I think it's blossomed, and Andre has come out on top. Yes he could unify, but I think it depends what happens in the next 6 months. There's no huge names at 175, but there's good fights to be made. A rematch with Chad at 175 would be good. Like you say, he'd have to alter his tactics slightly at 175.

That's fair enough, and Bat agrees. I guess I was taken in. But my thinking was, if nobody thought Chad had a chance of making weight safely, and they thought there was a high percentage of him being hurt etc, then surely they wouldn't have signed? That was my interpretation.

I'll be honest with you, I think he'll miss Hopkins. I think Hop wants one more fight before he calls it a day. I hope I'm wrong, but if this was 2010, I think we'd already have heard from Hop regarding a potential fight with Andre. I don't think he's got long left. I can't see Andre up at 175 until late next year at the earliest. I think Hop will be gone by then. Unless he looks good earlier next year and they can have a catchweight if Hop's interested. But does he believe he could beat Andre? He's not normally this quiet.

Also, Hop hasn't looked that great in his last few fights, and Andre wouldn't get much credit. I like Clev, and that would be a good fight. Dawson with a few wins under his belt, and his confidence back could pose a big threat at 175.

I agree. There's potentially some good fights, with a clash of styles at 175. Apparently he has to fight the winner of Kessler and Magee, so we'll see what happens. I thought he'd have a lay off after the Super Six and then moved to 175. But he's been injured, and now I think he's just thinking things through.

There are some good fights out there for him. I understand that 175 isn't littered with star names, but what more can he do at 168? Is he bothered about unifying the division against a guy he's easily beaten? I think he will regret not fighting Bute. But at the time, I don't blame him for not taking the fight. Maybe some of the other 168 guys could move up to 175? It's going to be interesting.

Regards, Loudon.

Hi mate

You've made some great points here yourself

I think if anyone deserves one last shot at Ward's 168 crown it's Froch to be honest although I think style wise confident Bute is a better match up to face Ward. This is due to Ward being a somewhat soft puncher so less likely to hurt Bute than Froch. As well as Bute being a southpaw which always has inherent issues for an orthordox fighter. However, Froch has the belt so it makes more sense for him to have the shot again in Vegas or Atlantic city due to unification bout. Provided Ward beats Froch again which I think he will then it's time to move up to 175, not worth Ward's time to wait for Direll, Groves or Degale as for one reason or another none are ready right now.

There are no huge names at 175, but there are two big names left Dawson and Cleverly which as I've already said would be good fights for Ward and great wins for anyone of them.

As for Ward vs Dawson, I agree with what you said that they wouldn't sign but my guess has to be that they were paid well enough although I don't know if that's true as I've seen Dawson's payday being touted from $600,000 to $1.3m. Furthermore maybe they were under the false impression that Chad would be fine at 168 and were just mistaken.

As for the retirement of Hopkins you make a good point and I'm now in agreement that this fight should be filed under unlikely.

Ward's career at 168 has peaked and can't really improve due to what he's done. His overall career still has plenty of time and potential achievements left. Personally looking forward to Ward at 175 and respect that he's doing it earlier in his career than Joe even if there's no-one quite as good as 2008 Bhop although Clev and Dawson can't be far off

cheers

Rudyard · 11-22-2012, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by TI99/4A

That sounds like the kind of thing your average conservative politician says shortly before they find his porn dungeon.

Keep on believing, dude!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...-Me-Dammit.jpg

Show proof of your allegation or shut the fuck up simp...Its seriously not that hard...Your lame attempt at being funny will not cut it!

You seriously think these guys would risk their job to make sure Ward will win???...What were they really trying to accomplish with that???...Ward was not nearly as big as he is today as to when the S6 started.

Like I said, you dont have a leg to stand on and you cant be that fucking dumb to think these guys rigged the tournament for Ward to win.

You're honestly taking stupidity to a new level...This has to be one of the dumbest excuses I ever heard...You're pretty much proving the Thread starter points with your pathetic excuse.

Get real fanboy

Rudyard · 11-22-2012, 11:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Smokin' Joe

Wow!

Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram. Getting a little defensive are we?

I'm still waiting on you to tell me in technical terms how Froch beats Ward. That's all I asked for.

You're wasting time homie...That bitch isnt gonna give a break down...He cant...As you can see, you're only getting long winded posts about nothing!

Bulletproof · 11-22-2012, 12:30 PM

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Originally Posted by MAJR

Seriously man, you know nothing of my opinion of Ward if your acusing me of being "another butthurt fanboy".

I freely admit that Ward's the best fighter in his division and beat Kessler and Froch fair and that neither man is worthy of a rematch with him right now - I've said both have to earn it by beating credible opposition within the division over the next year or so and inevitably fighting each other for the right to the rematch - and I even expect Ward to beat either of them if they ever did rematch him.

Maybe you should actually look into my post history next time.

My point was the same as shaunster101 - though he was more elegant in putting it forward - that the only point Ward's remaining critics continue to use against him is the stay-at-home thing so I see no reason in the future why Ward shouldn't go and beat whoever rises to top out of Kessler and Froch in their backyard to shut up the last of his critics, he's good enough to do it so I dont get why people are saying he shouldn't.

That and I feel it hypocritical to say that any potential challenger to Ward has got to take the title from the champion's turf when Ward never did himself - this does not mean I think his victories over Kessler or Froch any less legitimate or deserved.

My point is why is Ward being criticized for being a stay at home fighter? DLH NEVER left the USA. Mayweather has NEVER left the USA. RJJ when he was relevant and not old and battered, NEVER left the USA. Ward dominates three Euro's in en route to winning the S6, so now travel is an issue? Ward doesn't have to and shouldn't go beat up Kessler and/or Froch a second time just because some butthurt whiny ass fanboys want him to.

Cotto has a ton of fans, how come they aren't asking for a second fight with Floyd in PR? Were Hatton's fans demanding Manny come to the UK and fight him again? The answer is because nobody wants to see a replay of what they already saw, it serves NO PURPOSE. Could Cotto and Hatton do better, sure they could, just like Froch and Kessler could as well, but the outcome whether it's here, over there or on the fucking moon will most likely be the same.

At the end of the day if these fighters have as much heartburn over Ward fighting at home as their fans do, then Kessler and Froch should move on then. It's that simple. Besides if Ward can't sell a fight and these clowns can make so much more money fighting in their hometowns, then they should do so right?

Loudon · 11-22-2012, 03:04 PM

[quote=moneypaysbills;14251945]

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Hi mate

You've made some great points here yourself

I think if anyone deserves one last shot at Ward's 168 crown it's Froch to be honest although I think style wise confident Bute is a better match up to face Ward. This is due to Ward being a somewhat soft puncher so less likely to hurt Bute than Froch. As well as Bute being a southpaw which always has inherent issues for an orthordox fighter. However, Froch has the belt so it makes more sense for him to have the shot again in Vegas or Atlantic city due to unification bout. Provided Ward beats Froch again which I think he will then it's time to move up to 175, not worth Ward's time to wait for Direll, Groves or Degale as for one reason or another none are ready right now.

There are no huge names at 175, but there are two big names left Dawson and Cleverly which as I've already said would be good fights for Ward and great wins for anyone of them.

As for Ward vs Dawson, I agree with what you said that they wouldn't sign but my guess has to be that they were paid well enough although I don't know if that's true as I've seen Dawson's payday being touted from $600,000 to $1.3m. Furthermore maybe they were under the false impression that Chad would be fine at 168 and were just mistaken.

As for the retirement of Hopkins you make a good point and I'm now in agreement that this fight should be filed under unlikely.

Ward's career at 168 has peaked and can't really improve due to what he's done. His overall career still has plenty of time and potential achievements left. Personally looking forward to Ward at 175 and respect that he's doing it earlier in his career than Joe even if there's no-one quite as good as 2008 Bhop although Clev and Dawson can't be far off

cheers

Great post mate!

I've nothing more to add to this.

I agree with everything you've said.

Regards, Loudon.

Slothrop · 11-22-2012, 03:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Bulletproof

My point is why is Ward being criticized for being a stay at home fighter? DLH NEVER left the USA. Mayweather has NEVER left the USA. RJJ when he was relevant and not old and battered, NEVER left the USA. Ward dominates three Euro's in en route to winning the S6, so now travel is an issue? Ward doesn't have to and shouldn't go beat up Kessler and/or Froch a second time just because some butthurt whiny ass fanboys want him to.

Cotto has a ton of fans, how come they aren't asking for a second fight with Floyd in PR? Were Hatton's fans demanding Manny come to the UK and fight him again? The answer is because nobody wants to see a replay of what they already saw, it serves NO PURPOSE. Could Cotto and Hatton do better, sure they could, just like Froch and Kessler could as well, but the outcome whether it's here, over there or on the fucking moon will most likely be the same.

At the end of the day if these fighters have as much heartburn over Ward fighting at home as their fans do, then Kessler and Froch should move on then. It's that simple. Besides if Ward can't sell a fight and these clowns can make so much more money fighting in their hometowns, then they should do so right?

Bingo.

TI99/4A · 11-22-2012, 04:06 PM

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