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Old 11-23-2012, 09:58 PM   #31
Longhhorn71
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
WHY do you think there was that much security? It was because of the incidents that occurred within the 6 months or so prior to the fight. The fight was not rejected because of the potential of a fix but because of the potential of a incident that could injure or kill many people.

Normal major heavyweight title fights are usually conducted in venues less than 3,700..... Clay vs Liston 2 of course setting the all-time record for the lowest attendance of 2,434 for a heavyweight championship fight.

The skunk skeleton in the closet of
the so-called Clay vs Liston 2 rematch:

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:59 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Young Griffo,

Very few Top Boxers can get other Top Boxers as sparring partners, to get
their ribs and face busted up.

Sonny went through '12' sparring partners up in Dedham, Boston and Poland Springs,
Maine.

Who'd you expect him to get at $40 per day - George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, and Doug Jones.

You're such a 'moron'.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:18 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Young Griffo,

Very few Top Boxers can get other Top Boxers as sparring partners, to get
their ribs and face busted up.

Sonny went through '12' sparring partners up in Dedham, Boston and Poland Springs,
Maine.

Who'd you expect him to get at $40 per day - George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, and Doug Jones.

You're such a 'moron'.
Well the inference of Copelands "quote" (that is if he actually said it knowing your dubious history) was that Sonny looked great against him in sparring but terrible against Ali so therefore he automatically must've taken a dive.

I put zero stock in this as even an old and washed up Liston would be able to slap around a complete ham and egger like Copeland in any kind of fight but that has no relevence whatsoever on what that would mean against a fighter of Ali's quality in a real fight.

You using the testimonies of sparring partners to build a case for a "fix" is tenuous at best but in keeping with your usual standards of dubious reportage/baiting.

Personally I've always thought Liston did take a dive in the rematch (and the rematch only) but that is entirely his fault and his shameful performance shouldn't be attributed to Ali in any way unless you have any real evidence at all, which you don't unless heresay,conjecture and innuendo count as such.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Once again....the reason no one wanted the fight were as described. It had little if anything to do with the potential of a fix. It was all about Alis ties to the nation of Islam, Malcom x being assassinated and Ali life being threatened. The fear was what happened to Malcom would happen to Ali and in a boxing arena this may also take countless lives. no one attended the fight because of where it was, high ticket prices and the fear something bad was going to happen along the lines of what happened to Malcom x. This is why knowing history is so important. Wrong conclusions can be drawn as what was done here and other posts concerning these two outs.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:29 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

yep liston was unpopular and clay even more so. no one wanted to be associated with promoting either fighter - one an ex-con the other a black muslim. most didn't care who would win as they hated both fighters. many expected liston to KO the big mouth in the rematch and thought clay got lucky in the 1st cuz of liston's injured shoulder.
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:24 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Once again....the reason no one wanted the fight were as described. It had little if anything to do with the potential of a fix. It was all about Alis ties to the nation of Islam, Malcom x being assassinated and Ali life being threatened. The fear was what happened to Malcom would happen to Ali and in a boxing arena this may also take countless lives. no one attended the fight because of where it was, high ticket prices and the fear something bad was going to happen along the lines of what happened to Malcom x. This is why knowing history is so important. Wrong conclusions can be drawn as what was done here and other posts concerning these two outs.
This isn't true.

The fight wasn't wanted anywhere because :
1. the WBA had banned return bout contracts and the member state commissions had voted to uphold that ban.
2. Liston was linked to underworld figures which had him banned in other states.
3. The first fight had been controversial and had drawn a meagre crowd.


if anything, the Malcolm X assassination and a hypothetical "revenge" attack on Ali by Malcolm loyalists (Ali was an Elijah Muhammad loyalist) was over-egged by the media to arouse interest in the fight.
If they had stuck to strict boxing talk, it didn't seem to warrant much column space.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:50 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Jimmy Ellis,

The 25 year-old Louisville-based Middleweight.

The 6' 1" 165 lb. Ellis, with a record of 15-5-0 (6 KO's) who
will now move to Light-Heavyweight.

'We've been working on speed with Muhammad. There is no reason
for him to stand there and slug away with Liston. Just box, move, and jab -
that is the key.'

'I still believe Liston hurt his shoulder before the 1st-fight, and he thought
he could take out Muhammad in a couple of rounds anyway. Then he
realized he made a big mistake, so he quit.'
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

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Originally Posted by BillB View Post
The odds decreased because of money going into Ali.

You must be from the HOUDINI school of logic. LOL
of course your right. The american system of betting confuses me sometimes i.e. 9-5 liston would be 4-9 or 1-2 over here. And 13-10 liston would be 8-11 roughly.

Apologies
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:49 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

WRONG......well actually right and wrong....the reason all that occurred was the history of the times. noone wanted the fight as I described and when pressed they used the no return clause as an argument as to why.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Harvey 'Cody' Jones.........'The Detroit Express'

A 25 year-old, 6' 2" 205 lb. 'left-hook specialist' from Detroit.

In February 1964, the #19 Heavyweight - Cody Jones had a
record of 17-3-2 (15 KO's) and was regarded as having the
'quickest' left hook of all the Heavyweights in Boxing.

Not only quick, but powerful, leading some to say that Cody's left
hook was better than Sonny's.

After flooring Cassius in a February 1964 sparring session (at the
5th Street Gym), Cody was a 'hot commodity'.

Cody Jones, 'I'm faster than Sonny Liston. My left hook is much quicker,
because I snap it, while Sonny sweeps with his.'

By May 1965, 26 year-old - Cody had a record of 18-6-2 (15 KO's), after losing
'3-straight' bouts, knocking him out of the Top 20.

Cody Jones, 'If Sonny tries to throw that 'slow left hook' from way outside,
Cassius will parry it, and counter him silly.'

Cody Jones sparring with Cassius Clay.

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Old 11-24-2012, 11:28 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Ali vs. Liston 2: What Really Happened?

Lou Eisen

For some 47 years now, fight fans around the world have debated endlessly whether or not the rematch between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston, fought at St. Dominic’s Hall on May 25th, 1965, in Lewiston, Maine was on the level.

There are people who were there and witnessed the fight first hand and still to this day, claim that it was a fixed fight. On the other hand, there are an equal number of live attendees who claimed that Ali caught Liston on the chin with a solid, short, counter right hand over a lazy left jab, causing Liston to crumple to the canvas. There are some well-known facts about the fight. There are also some facts that the public may not be very familiar with but nonetheless heavily influenced the outcome of the fight.

The controversial outcome of their second fight was directly rooted in the controversial outcome of their first encounter. When Cassius Clay defeated Sonny Liston to win the undisputed world heavyweight title on February 25th, 1964, at the Convention Hall in Miami, Florida, there were many fans and boxing insiders who thought that fight was fixed.

Fans and media were certainly stunned into incredulity by Cassius Clay’s surprise upset victory over Liston in their first fight. More so it was the manner in which Clay won that left veteran writers and boxing insiders stupefied. It is still not perfectly clear to this very day why Liston, an overwhelming 10 to 1 favorite, simply quit on his stool in his corner after the sixth round, dejectedly spitting out his mouthpiece, while giving up his title. World heavyweight champions are supposed to go out on their shields.

Liston surrendered the world heavyweight title, because he had torn a muscle in his left shoulder during the bout and thus could no longer raise his left arm, or so he claimed. At the hospital later on, a doctor confirmed that Liston did indeed have a slight muscle tear in his left shoulder. The other theory that still remains to this day is that Liston quit on his stool to avoid being knocked out cold. This is believable when you consider how out of shape and slow Liston looked during the fight.

It seemed utterly farfetched that a little muscle tear could make a human threshing machine like Liston call it quits in his corner like a spoiled brat. Just a few years earlier, in Philadelphia, it took 25 police officers with billy clubs to subdue a drunken and enraged Liston. It just didn’t seem plausible at the time that a minor shoulder injury could cut short the title reign of perhaps the hardest puncher in heavyweight history.

The truth of why he quit on his stool goes a lot deeper than a torn shoulder muscle. For starters, Liston had not really trained much for Clay because Clay was not really regarded back then as a legitimate title challenger. He was looked on as something of a buffoon.

Liston genuinely believed he was going to KO Clay in a single round. Liston often said during training camp leading up to the fight, “I don’t know why I am training so hard for this punk kid. I am going to kill him in one round.” Liston was promised $1.2 million dollars for his title defense against Cassius Clay.

Although Clay’s team had full confidence in his abilities, they still had an ambulance and a neurosurgeon on standby in case Liston caught him with a big shot and did some serious damage. Once the fight began, it soon became apparent that Clay’s dazzling footwork and scintillating hand speed was just too much for the older (rumored to be in his early 40’s), out of shape Liston. Just before the end of the opening round, Clay caught Liston with a thudding right hand, opening a substantial cut just over the champion’s left eye. In just under three minutes, Clay had destroyed the invincibility myth that surrounded Liston.

Clay staggered the champion numerous times in the opening rounds with blistering combinations. As the fight progressed, Liston became very tired and quite discouraged. Clay was beating the hell out of him in front of the world. Liston’s title was slipping away. So was his self-respect.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Liston was promised $1.2 million dollars for his title defense against Clay. The check he received was for $13,000 dollars. Why was the amount on the check so much lower than what he had been promised? The answer to that question is easy. Mob tax. Essentially, the Mob ran up huge expenses on Liston’s tab, regardless of whether or not the expenses had anything to do with training camp or the fight.

The Mob robbed Liston blind. They did this to all of their fighters. As if that wasn’t bad enough, Liston also had to pay all state and federal taxes out of his end as well as the training camp and advertising costs. Then the mob took the rest. There was nothing Liston could do about it either. If he went public with that information, he would have most certainly been killed.

Liston left Miami for his home in Denver, after the fight without his title, his money and his sense of self worth. When he arrived home, he looked in the mirror and what he saw disturbed him greatly. Liston had sustained a broken nose, a busted left cheekbone and a hairline fracture of his left orbital bone. When you add a damaged left shoulder into the mix, Liston must have thought that was a lot of punishment to take for a measly $13 grand.

One can well imagine what went through Liston’s mind once the rematch was set up. No doubt he thought, “Why take more punishment for another $13,000 grand?” In Liston’s mind, it just wasn’t worth it. Or was it? Liston truly enjoyed being the world heavyweight champion and all of the requisite perks that went with it. He loved being recognized as the champ.

For the rematch, Liston trained like a demon every day, seven days a week. He was fiercely determined to get his title back. He pushed himself to the absolute limit of his physical abilities every day. He neither smoked nor drank while in training, a rarity for him. Come fight time, Liston was in the best shape of his entire career. His reflexes were perfectly honed and ready to spring like a steel trap. Liston felt that he was so close to regaining his title and self-respect that he could almost taste the glory. Then disaster struck.

During the last week of training camp for the rematch, the newly named Muhammad Ali collapsed in the gym with a ruptured hernia. He was rushed to the hospital where emergency surgery was performed to repair the hernia. The fight was postponed for six months. With the delay of the match, Liston became very depressed and began to drink and smoke in copious amounts. He never trained for the rematch again. He had given up on himself.

Acclaimed boxing writer Jerry Izenberg of the Newark Star Ledger, told me once that he was at Liston’s training camp the weekend before the rematch took place. He said Liston looked horrible. His balance was off and he kept falling in the ring. He was also unable to get a rhythm going on the speed bag. Liston’s body was no longer toned and fit. He was noticeably flabby and out of shape and gasping for air. Izenberg turned to another writer and said rhetorically, “This guy’s going to fight for the heavyweight title?”

Liston’s purse for the rematch was supposed to be identical to his wages for his original encounter with Clay/Ali, $1.2 million dollars. Once again he was handed a check for $13,000 prior to the fight. There is another factor to consider here that may have deeply affected Liston during the fight, which is the murder of Malcolm X. Ali and Malcolm had been close. They had a falling out, which Ali still regrets to this day.

There was a lot of talk in the media about the possibility of Nation of Islam assassins driving to Lewiston, Maine to kill Ali. Such talk terrified Liston. Liston thought what if they missed and killed him instead. It was clear that Liston did not want to be in Lewiston, Maine at that time.

When all of these disparate factors are added together, it makes perfect sense to think that Liston took a dive. However, as convincing as all of the above factors can be, they are refuted by one thing – the film of the fight.

Liston did get hit a legitimate shot squarely on the point of his chin and he hit the canvas in a heap. The series of moves Ali used to KO Liston were designed by Angelo Dundee and Ali used them many times throughout his illustrious career to KO such fighters as Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, and George Foreman. Watch the films of those fights and you will see Ali do the same three things over and over again.

Angelo called it, “Slip, slide and bang!” Liston made a beginner’s mistake that led to his own downfall. Liston lunged with his left jab. As anyone in boxing can tell you, whenever a fighter lunges, he is off-balance and highly susceptible to getting knocked out with a quick counter punch. When you watch the film, you see that Liston’s head is out over his front foot, which means that he was dangerously off-balance and wide open to a quick, powerful counter right hand. Ali slipped Liston’s jab, slid to his right maybe three inches to create an angle, and then threw the now famous picture perfect counter right hand to end the fight. Liston was off balance and took the whole brunt of the shot on his chin. He was down for more than ten seconds. Whatever happened after that is prologue.

Liston said years later, “I was off balance and he caught me with a stiff right hand. It rattled me. My head really hurt. It was a good shot.” Liston was mortal after all. Upon entering the ring that night, Liston was cheered vociferously by the crowd in attendance while Ali was booed with equal ferocity. It was the first and sadly, the last time Liston was ever cheered during a fight.

The film clip shows it all. When Liston finally did rise, Ali jumped on him, landing dozens of punches prior to Walcott stopping the fight. Even if Walcott had not stopped the fight, Liston would never have made it out of the first round. The knockout was genuine. Both men never faced each other again in the ring. They are however, forever linked, by their two title fights together, both of which ended in controversy.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:31 AM   #43
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Francis 'Lee' Williams,

A 29 year-old, 6' 1 1/2" 220 lb. Boston Heavyweight, a 1957 National A.A.U. Heavyweight
Champion.

By April 1965 -

With a record of 15-1-1 (14 KO's), 'Lee' could punch, and had a very good defense.

'Lee' had sparred many rounds with Sonny before the first scheduled bout in November
1964, and was again around in April/May 1965.

One of those $40 / Day 'sparring partners'.

Lee Williams, had stated that in the early sessions with Sonny back in 1964 before
the 'first scheduled rematch', Sonny was 'lost in the ring'.

'Sonny seemed to forget how to fight. Fighting a 'Frozen Floyd' was one thing, but
fighting guys who were not afraid of him and hit back, knocked all the confidence
out of Sonny. He now, doubted his abilities.'

'After '3' 3-Round sparring sessions with him, I was getting the best of him. He had a
sullen look in his eyes, one of realizing he was no longer invincible.'

'I never asked Sonny about the first fight with Clay in February 1964. I personally thought,
that Sonny 'threw the fight', so that they could 'scoop up the money' on the long odds.
It only made practical sense. But that was just my opinion.'
There was zero evidence of any big bets being placed on Ali to win the first fight, certainly none that would make it worth sellling the heavyweight Championship for.


Different thread, same shit.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:37 AM   #44
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
There was zero evidence of any big bets being placed on Ali to win the first fight, certainly none that would make it worth sellling the heavyweight Championship for.


Different thread, same shit.
What kind of evidence would you expect?

Big bets are placed privately. The legal sports books are for retail betters.
At the times of these fights, 99% of all bets were off the record- either through illegal bookmakers or a simple phone call between high rollers.

This is not going to leave a paper trail, and these people are certainly not going to volunteer the information.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:39 AM   #45
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Default Re: The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
There was zero evidence of any big bets being placed on Ali to win the first fight, certainly none that would make it worth sellling the heavyweight Championship for.


Different thread, same shit.

Well, as you've been reading Senor Pepe's posts, you know that he doesn't think the Ali-Liston fights were fixed for gambling coup.
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