The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by BillB

What kind of evidence would you expect?

Big bets are placed privately. The legal sports books are for retail betters.
At the times of these fights, 99% of all bets were off the record- either through illegal bookmakers or a simple phone call between high rollers.

This is not going to leave a paper trail, and these people are certainly not going to volunteer the information.

I agree. When people say "no evidence was found" it's kind of hollow.
I mean, the FBI were working on much bigger things within organized crime than the possible fixing of a single fight and the fleecing some bookies, working years to secure evidence on racketeering activity involving day-to-day crime and murder.
The investigations into Liston v Clay were brief committees wrapped up in a few weeks , not full-scale on-the-ground FBI operations.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I agree. When people say "no evidence was found" it's kind of hollow.
I mean, the FBI were working on much bigger things within organized crime than the possible fixing of a single fight and the fleecing some bookies, working years to secure evidence on racketeering activity involving day-to-day crime and murder.
The investigations into Liston v Clay were brief committees wrapped up in a few weeks , not full-scale on-the-ground FBI operations.

After searching for this, off-and-on all week, I can find mention of only one "investigation" of the Lewiston, ME fight.

The Maine Attorney General asked the FBI to investigate the possibility of a fix. The FBI made a few interviews and reported back in vague and muddled language, which meant nothing. They declined to conduct a full field investigation.

[Senor Pepe']

May 7, 1965

Augusta, Maine

Maine Governer, John Reed (sitting) is being told by Robert Nilon
(I-C-P President) that everyhting is on the 'up-and-up' for the
Cassius Clay vs. Sonny Liston - Heavyweight Championship bout.

Robert Nilon, 'You can trust me Governer, I even plan on having the
next Heavyweight Championship bout here in 6-Months for you.
We are going to put Lewiston, Maine on the map.'

[HOUDINI]

Maine did not have a boxing commission so NY State conducted the investigation. No evidence of a fix was found. Florida state athletic commission conducted the investigation of the first bout and again no evidence of a fix was found. BUT go ahead and keep making things up as you go. Official investigations in the months right after both bouts trumps this incredible inept speculation and distortion of reality 50 years after any day in the week.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Maine did not have a boxing commission so NY State conducted the investigation. No evidence of a fix was found. Florida state athletic commission conducted the investigation of the first bout and again no evidence of a fix was found. BUT go ahead and keep making things up as you go. Official investigations in the months right after both bouts trumps this incredible inept speculation and distortion of reality 50 years after any day in the week.

Provide a source for this.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Maine did not have a boxing commission so NY State conducted the investigation. No evidence of a fix was found. Florida state athletic commission conducted the investigation of the first bout and again no evidence of a fix was found. BUT go ahead and keep making things up as you go. Official investigations in the months right after both bouts trumps this incredible inept speculation and distortion of reality 50 years after any day in the week.

Maine did have a Boxing Commission.
Here's an article about that fight that mentions the Maine Boxing Commission twice.

I cannot find any mention anywhere of NY investigating the Lewiston fight. I simply don't believe it.

I think it's safe to conclude you make this shit up.

[Senor Pepe']

The Commissioner of the State of Maine Boxing Commission was George Russo.

It may not have been a 'top notch' outfit, but it did exist.

The Boxing Commission Physician, Dr. Raphael Turgeon.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Well, as you've been reading Senor Pepe's posts, you know that he doesn't think the Ali-Liston fights were fixed for gambling coup.

Pepe isnt interested in the reasons , he is only interested in derogating Muhammad Ali whether by implying fixed fights , or that he intentionally fouled opponents .

It matters not as long as there is a negative paper trail leading to Ali , that is his sole agenda.
I only read about 25% of his threads, read one ,read them all. Same agenda in every one.

What reason would be sufficient for a group in possession of the heavyweight title ,relinquishing that possession voluntarily?

With Liston out of the picture after Lewiston the mob were effectively out of the picture and ,out of control of the title too.
Where was the incentive to sell the richest prize in sports ?

Someone explain it to me.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by mcvey

Pepe isnt interested in the reasons , he is only interested in derogating Muhammad Ali whether by implying fixed fights , or that he intentionally fouled opponents .

It matters not as long as there is a negative paper trail leading to Ali , that is his sole agenda.
I only read about 25% of his threads, read one ,read them all. Same agenda in every one.

What reason would be sufficient for a group in possession of the heavyweight title ,relinquishing that possession voluntarily?

With Liston out of the picture after Lewiston the mob were effectively out of the picture and ,out of control of the title too.
Where was the incentive to sell the richest prize in sports ?

Someone explain it to me.

Muhammad Ali sold his WBA Championship to Bob Arum in May 1979 for $400,000.

Why..........MONEY.

[Pachilles]

Originally Posted by BillB

Provide a source for this.

LOL...on a senor pepe thread

[Unforgiven]

What reason would be sufficient for a group in possession of the heavyweight title ,relinquishing that possession voluntarily?

With Liston out of the picture after Lewiston the mob were effectively out of the picture and ,out of control of the title too.
Where was the incentive to sell the richest prize in sports ?

Someone explain it to me.

It's been explained over and over.
You clearly haven't been reading Pepe's threads.
You are criticizing without having even grasped the basic theory.

The "richest prize in sports" was getting very stale when Liston defeated Patterson twice. The press were openly writing that there were no big paydays out there for Sonny. Or a very limited supply. He'd defeated just about everyone and all the others would have been considered mismatches. He was not popular, and he was unlicensed to box in many major fight centres.
Liston's promoters brought champion Clay v ex-champion Patterson to Las Vegas, post-Lewiston. They must have made a lot of money, and if mob-connected they must have profitted from Vegas casino fight weekend revenue.

[groove]

hmmm...the white mafia would giveaway the heavyweight championship of the world to the black mafia LOL! Just give the biggest prize in sport away to their big buddies hahahaha........

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by groove

hmmm...the white mafia would giveaway the heavyweight championship of the world to the black mafia LOL! Just give the biggest prize in sport away to their big buddies hahahaha........

Don't be a simpleton. Liston's managers (not the mafia) didn't give anything away.

Ali was owned by 11 rich white men from Kentucky anyway.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Muhammad Ali sold his WBA Championship to Bob Arum in May 1979 for $400,000.

Why..........MONEY.

I'll give this the response it deserves.

N. B. Ali retired on 6th September 1978 . He had no titles to sell to Arum, or anyone else in May 1979.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

It's been explained over and over.
You clearly haven't been reading Pepe's threads.
You are criticizing without having even grasped the basic theory.

The "richest prize in sports" was getting very stale when Liston defeated Patterson twice. The press were openly writing that there were no big paydays out there for Sonny. Or a very limited supply. He'd defeated just about everyone and all the others would have been considered mismatches. He was not popular, and he was unlicensed to box in many major fight centres.
Liston's promoters brought champion Clay v ex-champion Patterson to Las Vegas, post-Lewiston. They must have made a lot of money, and if mob-connected they must have profitted from Vegas casino fight weekend revenue.

At least you got the underlined bit right.