Earnie Shavers vs. James Toney

[Bummy Davis]

Toney the more skilled but I think Shavers takes him out

[Hookie]

Toney W10 or W12... why would they be fighting 15 rounds? Shavers was never a World Champ! Toney had the WBA HW belt for 2 seconds before being stripped. Anyway, Shavers gives him hell but gets outboxed.

[rodney]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Toney the more skilled but I think Shavers takes him out

Watch Quarry / Shavers, and then tell me what you think.
Quarry walked right thru him.
And Quarry isnt a devastating puncher byno means.

[Absolutely!]

I think the first Peter fight is a good template for how the fight goes down. Peter, like Shavers, was a crude, heavy handed swarmer who battered you to body and head with both hands and left his chin open to dry. Unlike Shavers, however, his chin was extremely solid, and his stamina was not nearly so much of a problem.

Toney, despite his lack of stoppages at heavy, could still crack plenty hard, and crack you right on your chin when you least expected it. He also had an almost preternatural ability to avoid right hands and land his own counter shots off the roll (pull counters). A big looping, not especially fast right hand like Shavers had would be glancing off the top of Toney's head all night, with Shavers getting cracked in the maw a split second later. Peter was getting the treatment all night, and finding it very hard to land his own shots in turn, having to rely more on greater workrate to get the job done.

Shavers could very well hurt Toney but even if he does it's no guarantee he finishes the job. There are too many instances of fighters surviving Shavers's much vaunted power shots and going on to win the fight (Lyle, Mercado, Berbick etc). On the other hand, if he gets hurt by Toney (and that's also quite possible) then history has shown us that he's probably not going to recover. Throw in the skill disparity and it's far more likely to assume that Toney gets the winning shot off first.

I'm going for Toney late rounds KO.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

I think the first Peter fight is a good template for how the fight goes down. Peter, like Shavers, was a crude, heavy handed swarmer who battered you to body and head with both hands and left his chin open to dry. Unlike Shavers, however, his chin was extremely solid, and his stamina was not nearly so much of a problem.

Toney, despite his lack of stoppages at heavy, could still crack plenty hard, and crack you right on your chin when you least expected it. He also had an almost preternatural ability to avoid right hands and land his own counter shots off the roll (pull counters). A big looping, not especially fast right hand like Shavers had would be glancing off the top of Toney's head all night, with Shavers getting cracked in the maw a split second later. Peter was getting the treatment all night, and finding it very hard to land his own shots in turn, having to rely more on greater workrate to get the job done.

Shavers could very well hurt Toney but even if he does it's no guarantee he finishes the job. There are too many instances of fighters surviving Shavers's much vaunted power shots and going on to win the fight (Lyle, Mercado, Berbick etc). On the other hand, if he gets hurt by Toney (and that's also quite possible) then history has shown us that he's probably not going to recover. Throw in the skill disparity and it's far more likely to assume that Toney gets the winning shot off first.

I'm going for Toney late rounds KO.

thank you for pointing this out: neither lyle nor berbick had concrete chins and were able to take shaver's punches. the idea that one of shavers punches landing knocks out any man in history is silly....especially if the man has a chin like toney. take toney's own style and intelligence in the ring and combine it with shaver's own horrific finishing ability and I don't see a shavers knockout assured even if he lands that right hand CLEAN, right on the chin

[Decker]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

thank you for pointing this out: neither lyle nor berbick had concrete chins and were able to take shaver's punches. the idea that one of shavers punches landing knocks out any man in history is silly....especially if the man has a chin like toney. take toney's own style and intelligence in the ring and combine it with shaver's own horrific finishing ability and I don't see a shavers knockout assured even if he lands that right hand CLEAN, right on the chin

Good point. The OP stated
"The hardest heavy hitter of all time vs. the slick, solid chinned Toney..."
Shavers might have been the biggest pure hitter in his era, but wouldn't be that special in this era. He was about 210 in his prime, had some spectacular KO wins, but could also be KOd or lose by decison.

Anyway in this match up, Shavers could very likely win early. If it goes into the late rounds I'd favor JT by U/SD. As a person (their respective characters) I'll take Shavers over JT any time.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

thank you for pointing this out: neither lyle nor berbick had concrete chins and were able to take shaver's punches. the idea that one of shavers punches landing knocks out any man in history is silly....especially if the man has a chin like toney. take toney's own style and intelligence in the ring and combine it with shaver's own horrific finishing ability and I don't see a shavers knockout assured even if he lands that right hand CLEAN, right on the chin

If Shavers lands his right, it's likely to be on the back of Toney's head, or near his ear, which could badly affect his equilibrium. Peter landed that shot in their second fight and had Toney reeling all over the place. Thing is Shavers had such a tendency to blow his load trying to get his man out of there that if they survived, which was not unheard of, he was gassed to buggery and succumbed soon after.

I actually think Shavers would have more success with his left, which was an underrated punch (watch the Lyle fight). Whether he'd throw it with enough frequency and accuracy to be effective with it I don't know, but it should be a punch he needs to concentrate on if he wants to catch Toney's chin. He'd also have a lot of success with his right hook to the body if he can pin Toney against the ropes. The overhand isn't going to catch the sluracious one unless he's sleeping, IMO.

[FastHands(beeb)]

I think this is a fight where (natural) size does matter. I think Earnie rides roughshod over JT for a kayo, early.

[dyna]

Shavers had 90+ fights (that's a lot).

But when you check whether he is a genuine KO'er or a cherry-picker


If you exclude all opponents who have been KO'ed before
and all opponents who had a loss within 1 year of their encounter with Shavers (a typical thing for cherry-pickers)
it turns out that Shavers

KO'ed only 10 guys (median weight 201 lbs)
of which 8 guys were bums (like ·Young Agabab 0-1, 196 lbs, or ·Steve Carter 15-7, 190 lbs)
and only 2 were somewhat good: ·Howard Smith (17-2, 202 lbs) and ·Tony Perea (KO7) (16-1, 206 lbs).

THAT's Shavers' KO record in a nutshell.

For a guy with 90+ wins this is disappointing.

Shavers also did a lot of head holding and uppercutting / headbutting / low blows
See Joe Bugner fight.

[lufcrazy]

Toney on points.

Shavers will look like an amateur.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dyna

Shavers had 90+ fights (that's a lot).

But when you check whether he is a genuine KO'er or a cherry-picker


If you exclude all opponents who have been KO'ed before
and all opponents who had a loss within 1 year of their encounter with Shavers (a typical thing for cherry-pickers)
it turns out that Shavers

KO'ed only 10 guys (median weight 201 lbs)
of which 8 guys were bums (like ·Young Agabab 0-1, 196 lbs, or ·Steve Carter 15-7, 190 lbs)
and only 2 were somewhat good: ·Howard Smith (17-2, 202 lbs) and ·Tony Perea (KO7) (16-1, 206 lbs).

THAT's Shavers' KO record in a nutshell.

For a guy with 90+ wins this is disappointing.

Shavers also did a lot of head holding and uppercutting / headbutting / low blows
See Joe Bugner fight.

Why would you exclude those who have been KO'd before or lost within a year?

If hmm knocks out Pac should we exclude that result as well?

[dyna]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Why would you exclude those who have been KO'd before or lost within a year?

If hmm knocks out Pac should we exclude that result as well?

When people say he is the strongest puncher ever for what he did, it clearly is no proof.
Because most of his KO wins were already knocked out before or were bad opponents.

If you claim to or are claimed to be the most powerful puncher you have to proof yourself against the guys who can take the best punch.

If somebody is knocked out before, it means you aren't the only one who has proven to be capable to do it, and that means less than knocking out a guy like Wach for example.

Lamar Clark also looked pretty on paper with his KO streak but got KO'd by anything that was atleast an f-level fighter. (Though Lamar is far worse than Shavers)

[MagnaNasakki]

Shavers hits harder than Peter, to be sure, and Peter had Toney hanging on for dear life more then once.

He doesn't, however, have Peter's size or strength, which Peter used to overwhelm Toney's defenses regularly. IF Shavers could find the big right hand, Toney is in deep, deep trouble.

I can't say I think he would. He telegraphs and loads his right hand, and Toney's go to trick, the move he spends half of every fight doing, is rolling the shoulder to take over the right hand and immediately countering. If Shavers was deliberate with his violence, which he often was, he'd be unable to land it solid.

Toney UD. I don't think he'd pull off the kayo. He didn't hit very hard at heavyweight, and Earnie was vulnerable to being rocked and rolled by competent heavyweight punchers. Light punchers rarely if ever bothered him at all. Toney's only hope for stoppage is if Earnie gasses in totality, like he did in Holmes II.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dyna

When people say he is the strongest puncher ever for what he did, it clearly is no proof.
Because most of his KO wins were already knocked out before or were bad opponents.

If you claim to or are claimed to be the most powerful puncher you have to proof yourself against the guys who can take the best punch.

If somebody is knocked out before, it means you aren't the only one who has proven to be capable to do it, and that means less than knocking out a guy like Wach for example.

Lamar Clark also looked pretty on paper with his KO streak but got KO'd by anything that was atleast an f-level fighter. (Though Lamar is far worse than Shavers)

I'm pretty sure his reputation comes from those who felt his punches, as opposed to those who logged onto boxrec.

[rusak]

Shavers beat up a bunch of cruiserweight bums. His reputation is a joke. It is artificially inflated to prop up Ali's and Holmes' legacies.