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Old 03-08-2008, 09:53 PM   #1
mr. magoo
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Default Another category for George Foreman

Sorry about all the Foreman threads guys, but for some reason I've been thinking a lot about him lately. Maybe its because I use his grill frequently.

Anyway.

We all know that having a good record doesn't mean everything, and depending on the fighter, it may mean nothing. Dwayne Bobick for example began his career 38-0 and went no where. There is however something to be said for having a win over an unbeaten foe. George Foreman handed a lot of undefeated fighters their first loss.

Below is a list of undefeated fighter whom george gave their first "L". Some of them range from just having padded records to holding the legacy of being a lineal champion.

Here is the list from most number of wins to the least ( not listed according to greatness of course )

1. Lou Savarese - 36-0

2. Michael Moorer - 35-0

3. Joe Frazier - 29-0

4. John Denis - 28-0

5. Crawford Grimsley - 20-0

6. Jimmy Ellis ( 1991 ) - 16-0

That's a pretty decent list of undefeated men. Some of them were not world beaters as we all know, but among the names, we have two lineal champions, and at least two others who I think may have been reasonably ranked contenders. Savarese was undefeated in 36 fights and holding the USBA title, coming off a win over Mathis Jr. so I'm guessing he was a contender. I don't remember what he was ranked when I saw him fight Foreman. John Denis was 28-0 and could have had a place in the ratings too. We also have to consider that of these 6 guys, he knocked out 4 of them, and fought 4 of them post age 44.
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

That's a great record no matter how you look at it.

Foreman did a lot of great things.

Pity some people still has doubts about his place in the ATG list. I guess they judge him too harshly just because he lost to Ali.
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraq

Pity some people still has doubts about his place in the ATG list. I guess they judge him too harshly just because he lost to Ali.
Ironically, people seem to take points away from him for his very late losses to men like Morrison or his life and death battle with Alex Stewart. I'm not exactly sure why. For a guy his age to still be in there trading with hard hitting contenders is more of a credit to his legacy than a minus in my opinion.
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Old 03-09-2008, 03:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Young's underrated.

When he hit his peak in early 73' the only person that beat him in the following extremely active four years was Ali.

In that time he easily out pointed Ron Lyle twice.
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Old 03-09-2008, 03:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

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Originally Posted by Snorlax
Foreman is a wild-swinging bum of a re**** who has no chance against true boxing supermen.
Yet he in fact beat or was competitive with a lot of boxing supermen.
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

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Originally Posted by Russell
Young's underrated.

When he hit his peak in early 73' the only person that beat him in the following extremely active four years was Ali.

In that time he easily out pointed Ron Lyle twice.
Jimmy Young accomplished a lot in boxing as well. His resume of quality wins is solid, and his ledger should probably include a win over Ali as well, and maybe Norton. What a legacy Young would have if he had gotten the decision in either the Norton or Ali fight.
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Sorry about all the Foreman threads guys, but for some reason I've been thinking a lot about him lately.
Quote:
We all know that having a good record doesn't mean everything, and depending on the fighter, it may mean nothing. There is however something to be said for having a win over an unbeaten foe. George Foreman handed a lot of undefeated fighters their first loss.
Quote:
Below is a list of undefeated fighter whom george gave their first "L".
Quote:
4. John Denis - 28-0
Quote:
John Denis was 28-0 and could have had a place in the ratings too
I consider George to have posted a very good win over Dino. The New England HW Champion was the same height as Foreman, actually had a reach advantage, and was gifted with faster hands and feet. He could also take an excellent punch, and did not sustain an official knockdown until ****ey hooked him into boxing oblivion. Dino was only 24 at the time, was certainly not intimidated by Foreman, and had the advantage of youth over George, something unusual for that era. He had won over the 12 round distance the previous year, and was coming off a ten round over the then promising Scott LeDoux.

Dino started off moving and boxing George from long range, the strategy Ali had been expected to employ in the African jungle. It was obvious that the cutie Denis was going to try using all of the fast 20 foot ring to drag Foreman into deeper water than he was used to. George intelligently went downstairs at the earliest opportinuties, promptly taking away Dino's legs. Although George was clearly getting tired when Al Braverman stopped it from John's corner in round four, it was obvious that Denis could no longer get away from his much more powerful attacker.

It was really against Denis that Foreman proved sticking and moving to be the incorrect template for beating him. The kind of defense needed to succeed against George involved proficient upper body protection, not flamboyant and evasive footwork. Dino would have needed to execute a nearly perfect performance to decision Foreman, but he wasn't Greg Peralta or Jimmy Young, able to successfully stand up to George with guile and saavy, to hit and not be hit in return. John could not intercept and redirect the force of Foreman's shots, and failed to trade punches with George on his own terms (like Tyrone Crawley and Wilfred Benitez were known to do).

Today, it seems a little silly to believe that an upset could have been a possibility, but Foreman did take a chance against a live underdog who many expected might spring a ten round surprise. Jerry Quarry and Tom Brookshier were questioning why Dino stopped moving and trying to get away from George, but it's obvious in the footage that Foreman's body attack was responsible for taking away John's capacity to elude the shots which ended the proceedings. Considering how this one unfolded, it may be a very fortunate thing that Ali did not have a large fast ring surface to dance on in Kinshasa.

Peralta and Young proved that one need not be a towering superheavyweight to stand up to the youthful Foreman successfully, and perhaps Young took careful note of what happened during Foreman/Denis in hatching his own plan for his brush with ring immortality.
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
I consider George to have posted a very good win over Dino. The New England HW Champion was the same height as Foreman, actually had a reach advantage, and was gifted with faster hands and feet. He could also take an excellent punch, and did not sustain an official knockdown until ****ey hooked him into boxing oblivion. Dino was only 24 at the time, was certainly not intimidated by Foreman, and had the advantage of youth over George, something unusual for that era. He had won over the 12 round distance the previous year, and was coming off a ten round over the then promising Scott LeDoux.

Dino started off moving and boxing George from long range, the strategy Ali had been expected to employ in the African jungle. It was obvious that the cutie Denis was going to try using all of the fast 20 foot ring to drag Foreman into deeper water than he was used to. George intelligently went downstairs at the earliest opportinuties, promptly taking away Dino's legs. Although George was clearly getting tired when Al Braverman stopped it from John's corner in round four, it was obvious that Denis could no longer get away from his much more powerful attacker.

It was really against Denis that Foreman proved sticking and moving to be the incorrect template for beating him. The kind of defense needed to succeed against George involved proficient upper body protection, not flamboyant and evasive footwork. Dino would have needed to execute a nearly perfect performance to decision Foreman, but he wasn't Greg Peralta or Jimmy Young, able to successfully stand up to George with guile and saavy, to hit and not be hit in return. John could not intercept and redirect the force of Foreman's shots, and failed to trade punches with George on his own terms (like Tyrone Crawley and Wilfred Benitez were known to do).

Today, it seems a little silly to believe that an upset could have been a possibility, but Foreman did take a chance against a live underdog who many expected might spring a ten round surprise. Jerry Quarry and Tom Brookshier were questioning why Dino stopped moving and trying to get away from George, but it's obvious in the footage that Foreman's body attack was responsible for taking away John's capacity to elude the shots which ended the proceedings. Considering how this one unfolded, it may be a very fortunate thing that Ali did not have a large fast ring surface to dance on in Kinshasa.

Peralta and Young proved that one need not be a towering superheavyweight to stand up to the youthful Foreman successfully, and perhaps Young took careful note of what happened during Foreman/Denis in hatching his own plan for his brush with ring immortality.
Do you happen to know what Denis what ranked at the time? I have a hard time believing that he didn't have a spot somewhere in the top 10-15. Like you say, he had wins over Ledoux and also Jose Roman- a recnt contennder. He was also unbeaten in nearly 30 fights, so I'm guessing he had to be ranked in some capacity.

His fight with Foreman is available on youtube. He did look to be in pretty good shape and had some boxing skills as you mentioned. Definately not a safe opponent for George who was trying to maintain a position to fight for the title.
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Old 03-16-2008, 04:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Do you happen to know what Denis what ranked at the time? I have a hard time believing that he didn't have a spot somewhere in the top 10-15. Like you say, he had wins over Ledoux and also Jose Roman- a recnt contennder. He was also unbeaten in nearly 30 fights, so I'm guessing he had to be ranked in some capacity.

His fight with Foreman is available on youtube. He did look to be in pretty good shape and had some boxing skills as you mentioned. Definitely not a safe opponent for George who was trying to maintain a position to fight for the title.
Computer problems have been blunting my attempts to reply to this, hence the delay.

Coming off his decision over LeDoux, his ranking must have peaked for the Foreman fight. My collection of periodical boxing literature does not cover that interval of time, but it seems reasonable to assume Denis had cracked the top ten by then. This was during a period when Dunn, Coopman, Wepner and Evangelista were getting rankings which qualified them for title shots.

Dino had previously boxed on nationally television, so he was better known to American audiences than Coopman, Evangelista and Dunn were when they challenged Ali. (Evangelista was only 16 fights and 17 months into a 78 match, 13 year career.) At 28-0-1, Dino would have been an absolutely acceptable challenger for Ali, when his record is compared to what Jimmy Young's (17-4-2), Dunn's (33-9, with eight of his losses by knockout), Coopman's (24-3), and that of Leon Spinks (6-0-1) were at the time they got their title shots. (Young really made his name after facing Ali, by outclassing Lyle a second time, retiring Foreman, and boxing Norton to a standstill when Kenny was widely believed to be the world's best HW after George's exit in PR.) Dino would have been Ali's only undefeated opponent between Foreman and Spinks if he was granted a title shot after decisioning LeDoux. With wins over two former title challengers (Roman and Terry Daniels) John had a better resume than Bobick at the time. For Muhammad, a Caucasian-American challenger could have been a box office winner, even if Dino was more cutie than killer.

Denis lost to Foreman a month after Muhammad concluded his trilogy with Norton. Ali stopped Dunn in May, 1976. Denis decisioned LeDoux one month later. Muhammad faced Norton in NYC at the end of September. Between Dunn and Norton, Ali cashed in with his boxer versus wrestler stunt against Antonio Inoki in Tokyo on June 26, an excursion which resulted in Inoki screwing up Muhammad's aging legs so badly he needed to be hospitalized to have blood drained from them. He might have been far better off defending against Denis in Boston, or Providence RI that summer. (Then again, he got paid one million dollars for each punch he threw at Inoki, so maybe he didn't squander the summer of 1976 so badly after all. But Ali/Denis in New England would have surely been more exciting than Ali/Inoki proved to be, and probably offered a more intriguing promotional build-up and interesting match-up than Ali/Young.) The more I contemplate it, the more I suspect Muhammad may have lost out on a "safe" but potentially lucrative domestic tune-up for Norton by taking on Inoki in Japan, instead of Dino in NE.

I had intended to offer only a brief reply to your inquiry, but as I've proceeded, these ideas have percolated out. Given the considerations I've suggested, do you suppose Ali/Denis in June or July 1976 was a viable opportunity missed?
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Sorry about all the Foreman threads guys, but for some reason I've been thinking a lot about him lately. Maybe its because I use his grill frequently.

Anyway.

We all know that having a good record doesn't mean everything, and depending on the fighter, it may mean nothing. Dwayne Bobick for example began his career 38-0 and went no where. There is however something to be said for having a win over an unbeaten foe. George Foreman handed a lot of undefeated fighters their first loss.

Below is a list of undefeated fighter whom george gave their first "L". Some of them range from just having padded records to holding the legacy of being a lineal champion.

Here is the list from most number of wins to the least ( not listed according to greatness of course )

1. Lou Savarese - 36-0

2. Michael Moorer - 35-0

3. Joe Frazier - 29-0

4. John Denis - 28-0

5. Crawford Grimsley - 20-0

6. Jimmy Ellis ( 1991 ) - 16-0

That's a pretty decent list of undefeated men. Some of them were not world beaters as we all know, but among the names, we have two lineal champions, and at least two others who I think may have been reasonably ranked contenders. Savarese was undefeated in 36 fights and holding the USBA title, coming off a win over Mathis Jr. so I'm guessing he was a contender. I don't remember what he was ranked when I saw him fight Foreman. John Denis was 28-0 and could have had a place in the ratings too. We also have to consider that of these 6 guys, he knocked out 4 of them, and fought 4 of them post age 44.
I saw all of these fights except for the Dennis fight. Here's what you should know.

I felt Saveresse beat Foreman, but the judges smiled upon George. One judge had it 118-110 for Foreman. Horrible card.

Grimsley was a protected fighter, not much better than Peter McNeeley. Foreman should have Ko'd him. Grimsley went the distance. You could not pay me again to watch that fight. It was boring.

The Jimmy Ellis Foreman fought was also a super protected fighter. This Jimmy Ellis ( not the 60’s and 70’s Ellis ) was a tough man skill wise and spoon-feed bottom shelf tomato cans. After Foreman Ko'd Ellis in 3 ( The stoppage was too quick in my book ), Ellis was stopped 3 other times, two of which were 1st round KO losses and dropped a decision to a 1-9-1 fighter.

The Frazier and Moorer wins were great though. Especially Frazier. I think the Morrer win was a tad lucky for Foreman. And what I mean by that is I’d pick Morrer in a re-match.

Last edited by Mendoza; 03-17-2008 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Another category for George Foreman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
Computer problems have been blunting my attempts to reply to this, hence the delay.

Coming off his decision over LeDoux, his ranking must have peaked for the Foreman fight. My collection of periodical boxing literature does not cover that interval of time, but it seems reasonable to assume Denis had cracked the top ten by then. This was during a period when Dunn, Coopman, Wepner and Evangelista were getting rankings which qualified them for title shots.

Dino had previously boxed on nationally television, so he was better known to American audiences than Coopman, Evangelista and Dunn were when they challenged Ali. (Evangelista was only 16 fights and 17 months into a 78 match, 13 year career.) At 28-0-1, Dino would have been an absolutely acceptable challenger for Ali, when his record is compared to what Jimmy Young's (17-4-2), Dunn's (33-9, with eight of his losses by knockout), Coopman's (24-3), and that of Leon Spinks (6-0-1) were at the time they got their title shots. (Young really made his name after facing Ali, by outclassing Lyle a second time, retiring Foreman, and boxing Norton to a standstill when Kenny was widely believed to be the world's best HW after George's exit in PR.) Dino would have been Ali's only undefeated opponent between Foreman and Spinks if he was granted a title shot after decisioning LeDoux. With wins over two former title challengers (Roman and Terry Daniels) John had a better resume than Bobick at the time. For Muhammad, a Caucasian-American challenger could have been a box office winner, even if Dino was more cutie than killer.

Denis lost to Foreman a month after Muhammad concluded his trilogy with Norton. Ali stopped Dunn in May, 1976. Denis decisioned LeDoux one month later. Muhammad faced Norton in NYC at the end of September. Between Dunn and Norton, Ali cashed in with his boxer versus wrestler stunt against Antonio Inoki in Tokyo on June 26, an excursion which resulted in Inoki screwing up Muhammad's aging legs so badly he needed to be hospitalized to have blood drained from them. He might have been far better off defending against Denis in Boston, or Providence RI that summer. (Then again, he got paid one million dollars for each punch he threw at Inoki, so maybe he didn't squander the summer of 1976 so badly after all. But Ali/Denis in New England would have surely been more exciting than Ali/Inoki proved to be, and probably offered a more intriguing promotional build-up and interesting match-up than Ali/Young.) The more I contemplate it, the more I suspect Muhammad may have lost out on a "safe" but potentially lucrative domestic tune-up for Norton by taking on Inoki in Japan, instead of Dino in NE.

I had intended to offer only a brief reply to your inquiry, but as I've proceeded, these ideas have percolated out. Given the considerations I've suggested, do you suppose Ali/Denis in June or July 1976 was a viable opportunity missed?
Thank you very much for your insite Lobotomy. You certainly have a lot more knowledge about Denis than I do. As for your question about Ali and Denis being a missed opportunity, my answer pretty much coincides with your earlier ascertion that he couldn't have been any worse than Dunn, Coopman, or Wepner. In fact, finishing his career with a 28-0 prospect on his record would have been a much better way to go out than having some of those other guys on there. I would even go as far as to say that Denis was likely a more qualified fighter than Leon Spinks.
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