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Old 03-16-2008, 12:43 PM   #46
Grebfan9
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

IN MY ANALYSIS OF THIS QUESTION, LETS TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT
TYPE OF FIGHTERS GAVE ALI THE MOST TROUBLE: PRESSURE
FIGHTERS LIKE FRAZIER AND FIGHTERS WITH GOOD QUICK JABS
LIKE KEN NORTON.

JIM BRADDOCK HAD A GOOD QUICK JAB, EXCELLENT STAMINA AND A
SOLID CHIN. EXPECT A HARD FIGHT FROM BRADDOCK VERSUS ALI.

LOU NOVA HAD AN EXCELLENT QUICK JAB, VERY GOOD FOOTWORK
A STRONG CHIN AND A HARD RIGHT CROSS. NOVA WAS ALSO
ABOUT 6' 3". NOVA WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE VERSUS ALI.

BUDDY BAER HAD HEIGHT (6' 6"), POWER AND DETERMINATION.
BAER COULD GIVE ALI A FEW ANXIOUS MOMENTS.

CONN FOUGHT A BIT DIFFERENTLY THAN ALI. CONN WAS AN
EXCELLENT BODY PUNCHER - HE KAYOED BOB PASTOR WITH A
LEFT HOOK TO THE BODY. CONN WOULD MOVE IN AND BANG
ALI WITH BODY PUNCHES AND CONN ALSO HAD A VERY GOOD
LEFT HOOK TO THE HEAD.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THESE FIGHTERS WOULD WALK OVER ALI,
BUT THEY WERE ALL EXPERIENCED AND TOUGH AND WOULD GIVE
ALI A FIGHT.

GREBFAN9
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Old 03-16-2008, 06:19 PM   #47
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

That Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab doesn't mean all guys with good jabs would trouble him. Liston had a legendary jab that only hit air when he met Ali, and guys like Terrell, Ellis, Bugner and Foreman all had good jabs, but that didn't help them much.

Can't really see why Conn would trouble Ali, who quite easily beat small, fast guys like Patterson and Foster (yes, Foster cut him, but Ali's win was never in doubt).
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Old 03-16-2008, 06:41 PM   #48
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
That Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab doesn't mean all guys with good jabs would trouble him. Liston had a legendary jab that only hit air when he met Ali, and guys like Terrell, Ellis, Bugner and Foreman all had good jabs, but that didn't help them much.

Can't really see why Conn would trouble Ali, who quite easily beat small, fast guys like Patterson and Foster (yes, Foster cut him, but Ali's win was never in doubt).
What troubled Ali was guys who fought on the back foot.

Bob Pastor and Joe Walcott would be two to avoid.
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Old 03-16-2008, 06:54 PM   #49
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
What troubled Ali was guys who fought on the back foot.
Except for Jimmy Young (who Ali fought when way past his peak), do you have any examples of this?
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:00 PM   #50
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
Except for Jimmy Young (who Ali fought when way past his peak), do you have any examples of this?
Yes

Jimmy Young

He looked like a lost little boy in that fight.

It wasnt just that he was faded. He genuinely didnt know how to fight on the front foot. Throw enough Jimmy Youngs at him and he will lose eventualy.
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:13 AM   #51
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

The Ali who fought Terrell wouldn't be allowed to fight Conn. Total mismatch. Foreman when he landed could kill Conn.
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:44 PM   #52
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Yeah, I think it's a bit far-fetched to assume that Conn would be difficult for Ali just because Ali had trouble with Jimmy Young in one of the worst perfomances of his career when he was at just about the worst shape he's even been in (he came in at 230 lbs). Foreman lost to Young and I don't see Conn lasting very long against Foreman.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:05 PM   #53
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

I cant see Ali losing to anybody on Joe Louis' record.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:49 PM   #54
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Good question!

Green Ali v Schmeling would be very interesting. VERY interesting, but I would pick green Ali to win it nontheless.

The Max Baer fight would be harder for him. Baer would be a live wire the entire time he was in there - the later rounds v Baer would be the cricial ones for Ali I feel, and there'd probably be a rematch to boot. It's possible that Baer could beat a young Ali I feel, he could be Ali's Schmeling, if you see what I mean. There might even be a trilogy.

Braddock would be easier for Ali and he might actually do the near impossible and force Braddock to quit.

The Conn fight wouldn't happen. What would be the point, he would have literally no chance.

Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.

These are the thoughts that first occur to me.
The Baer fight would have been pretty easy, Ali never had problems with slower lumbering power punchers. I think'd he'd look very impressive in that one.

The Walcott fight would be tougher than expected. I think Jersey Joe would have beaten Ali at that stage.

Ali was never a sucker to a right hand always the left hook. I think its within possibility that he might get cute with Galento and taste the canvas before resuming the clinic that he would have most likely been putting on display. I don't think Schemeling would have given him fits.
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:57 PM   #55
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc
I cant see Ali losing to anybody on Joe Louis' record.
It is not a question of whether you would favour an given Louis oponent over Ali.

It is a question of whether he could beat them all under the same circumstances as Louis in the same order.
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:59 PM   #56
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchamp
The Baer fight would have been pretty easy, Ali never had problems with slower lumbering power punchers. I think'd he'd look very impressive in that one.
Remember that this is Ali only 14 months into his profesional career with a much shorter amateur career before that.

Quote:
The Walcott fight would be tougher than expected. I think Jersey Joe would have beaten Ali at that stage.
This would be his toughest test.

What version of Ali would be a fair comparison to the version of Louis that fought Walcott?

If it is the post Manilla version then Walcott probably wins.
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:15 PM   #57
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

[quote=janitor]
Quote:
What version of Ali would be a fair comparison to the version of Louis that fought Walcott?

If it is the post Manilla version then Walcott probably wins.
That is far from impossible. Ali faded incredibly fast after that fight.

But I do think that even a quite green Ali probably would beat Baer. What I've seen of him he's just too predictable and far too reliant on his big right.

That Ali in his prime would have trouble with Conn, that I just can't believe, though.
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:36 PM   #58
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
That Ali in his prime would have trouble with Conn, that I just can't believe, though.
Personaly I think Conn would be one of his tougher asignments of that period.

A bit of a foil perhaps.
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Old 03-17-2008, 08:33 PM   #59
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

you can't compare Foster and Conn in terms of fighting styles. One, Conn, was a little guy who fought like a little guy (when he wasn't getting carried away), the other, Foster, was a little guy who fought the bigger guys like a bigger guy.
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