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Old 03-06-2008, 11:48 AM   #1
mcvey
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Default New v Old

In the light of Klitschkos "thrilling " win over some other Russian ,do you think either of them would be prepared to put themselves through the pain barrier in a set to like the Jeffries v Sharkey killer.?Or are todays heavys made of less sterner stuff?
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: New v Old

A select fighters will always be willing to make those kind of sacrifices, regardless of the age.

Wladimir? No. He's still kind of wobbly mentally, I think.
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: New v Old

I hear some of the old story's from my older relatives (back in the Day) and I dont think I would be able to do what they did (walk for miles) work as hard for less...so times have changed...Dempsey used to ride the undercarrige of a train to get to his barenuckle fights, holding on to the bottom of the train his arms became like steel cables
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: New v Old

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
In the light of Klitschkos "thrilling " win over some other Russian ,do you think either of them would be prepared to put themselves through the pain barrier in a set to like the Jeffries v Sharkey killer.?Or are todays heavys made of less sterner stuff?
While many are much bigger and possess decent skills, Its hard for me to imagine the being tougher than the fighters from that era. Some of those guys had to literaly fight to put food on their tables. Top that off with more rounds, smaller gloves and less medical technology to train, heal etc., and these guys were real iron men. That said, Im not one who believes just because they were tougher that they were all better, or would beat todays heavies.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:46 PM   #5
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I agree with JAB5239..I've always felt that fighters of the past were tougher than thier modern counterparts. How many fighters today have even close to 100 fights under thier belts? With the money involved toay many fighters fight only once a year or less... being too afraid of risking a big payday by fighting a top contender. With that being said however, I feel that todays fighter, at least the elite level fighter, has an edge over the old timers as far as improved technique and the access to sports nutrition and supplements(legal or otherwise) is concerned. We can't ignore the fact either that todays HWs are generally alot bigger than the HWs of yesteryear. The days of the 185-200lb hw champs are long gone. All in all though I still think that the old timers were tougher but not necessarily better than todays big boys.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: New v Old

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIm Broughton
I agree with JAB5239..I've always felt that fighters of the past were tougher than thier modern counterparts. How many fighters today have even close to 100 fights under thier belts? With the money involved toay many fighters fight only once a year or less... being too afraid of risking a big payday by fighting a top contender. With that being said however, I feel that todays fighter, at least the elite level fighter, has an edge over the old timers as far as improved technique and the access to sports nutrition and supplements(legal or otherwise) is concerned. We can't ignore the fact either that todays HWs are generally alot bigger than the HWs of yesteryear. The days of the 185-200lb hw champs are long gone. All in all though I still think that the old timers were tougher but not necessarily better than todays big boys.
I agree with this. Having said that here is a peice I wrote a while back on Old timers.


Quote:
Most great fighters are not great athletes in a traditional sense. Most great athletes are most certainly not fighters! The correlation between being a great athlete and a great fighter is well far below what average sports fan thinks. Anyone who has seen an NBA fight , or a top NFL Player “ Attempting “ to become a heavyweight boxer ought to be able to smell what I’m cooking.

Most sports tend to agree that their athletes pre World War II could not match up with modern athletes. Such is the case in Football, Basketball, or Baseball. However, these are team sports where every man must rely on his team to win. Players enjoy time outs, breaks between quarters or innings, mainly exert themselves in short bursts. Substitutions are the norm. Injury time outs are common, with the player being allowed to come back into the game at any time. Clothes and protection are given. Illegal fouls often result in direct advancement of the opposition..

Boxing is a different sport. There is no team. One must endure 3 minutes rounds on his own. During the action, there is no time outs. No lead is safe. A fight can end on any given punch.

Most boxing fans today have no idea how tough the conditions were for some of the old timers. There was no air conditioning, and in many cases no electricity. Transportation was limited. The best way to get things done was with your body. Life’s mundane tasks required people to crack a sweat, thus the men in much better condition.

Mother Nature was unkind to those who were born ill. Many did not live long enough to pass on their genes to the next generation. In a sense, only the strong survived. The fights themselves were grueling contests, which often exceeded 15 rounds of action. If you watch heavyweight boxing today, 12 rounds seems to be too much for even the most conditioned fighters. Could heavyweight today go a hard 15? Perhaps a few could, but going, 20, or 25 rounds would be out of the question

The real old timer’s equipment or lack of equipment made fights even more difficult. Fighters entered the ring with no mouth guard to cushion the blows, or guard against cuts. The gloves were dangerous. They were not well cushioned pieces of equipment. No sir, they were often much lighter, say about 6 to 10OZ. which offered poor protection for your hands. Heavyweight’s today would not last with such light gloves! Ask a fighter the difference of how it feels to be hit by 6 oz bag gloves, vs 16oz gloves for heavyweight fights. The difference is night and day. The shoes were unscientific. The old metal cups did more harm than good. One did not want to be hit low. The rings themselves were real 25 x 25 rings, which required movement. The ropes were of little help, and fighters were more likely to get tangled up or fall though them. Oh there’s more. The fights themselves often took place in stuffy non-air conditions smoke filled rooms, or worse in broad day light under the sun’s heat. Has anyone has played pick up basketball on a hot day? If this were a fight, how long could you last? Just imagine fighting in such a condition. Money? Ha-ha. Today a guy makes a million dollars for a fight, then he goes soft. In old timers days, top athletes made money some, but could not get rich like fighters can today. Fighting was a way for most to pay the bills for old timers, not retire as a rich man. The referee’s were much slower to stop fight, and if you watch the films, many old timers took pride in getting up as many times as possible.

Lastly, if your comparing old time athletes, with modern athletes, lets fact or in years of film + advancement of the sport, nutrition, and “ Supplements “ The only way to level the playing field is to place the modern athletes in old times under their rules, or project the old time athletes getting modern , such as modern trainers, nutrition, and ahem…supplements.

The best comparison between an old time fighter and a modern fighter would be vs a stray cat, and domesticated cat. The domesticated cat might be bigger, but who would you pick to win in a scrap in a closed room?

In most cases I don’t rank 180-200 pound men highly unless of course they had tremendous power, good skills, and excellent durability. Power in boxing has a way to level the playing field regardless of weight, and those who have great chins and stamina, are always dangerous in the late rounds.
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: New v Old

Quote:
Most great fighters are not great athletes in a traditional sense. Most great athletes are most certainly not fighters! The correlation between being a great athlete and a great fighter is well far below what average sports fan thinks. Anyone who has seen an NBA fight , or a top NFL Player “ Attempting “ to become a heavyweight boxer ought to be able to smell what I’m cooking.

Most sports tend to agree that their athletes pre World War II could not match up with modern athletes. Such is the case in Football, Basketball, or Baseball. However, these are team sports where every man must rely on his team to win. Players enjoy time outs, breaks between quarters or innings, mainly exert themselves in short bursts. Substitutions are the norm. Injury time outs are common, with the player being allowed to come back into the game at any time. Clothes and protection are given. Illegal fouls often result in direct advancement of the opposition..

Boxing is a different sport. There is no team. One must endure 3 minutes rounds on his own. During the action, there is no time outs. No lead is safe. A fight can end on any given punch.

Most boxing fans today have no idea how tough the conditions were for some of the old timers. There was no air conditioning, and in many cases no electricity. Transportation was limited. The best way to get things done was with your body. Life’s mundane tasks required people to crack a sweat, thus the men in much better condition.

Mother Nature was unkind to those who were born ill. Many did not live long enough to pass on their genes to the next generation. In a sense, only the strong survived. The fights themselves were grueling contests, which often exceeded 15 rounds of action. If you watch heavyweight boxing today, 12 rounds seems to be too much for even the most conditioned fighters. Could heavyweight today go a hard 15? Perhaps a few could, but going, 20, or 25 rounds would be out of the question

The real old timer’s equipment or lack of equipment made fights even more difficult. Fighters entered the ring with no mouth guard to cushion the blows, or guard against cuts. The gloves were dangerous. They were not well cushioned pieces of equipment. No sir, they were often much lighter, say about 6 to 10OZ. which offered poor protection for your hands. Heavyweight’s today would not last with such light gloves! Ask a fighter the difference of how it feels to be hit by 6 oz bag gloves, vs 16oz gloves for heavyweight fights. The difference is night and day. The shoes were unscientific. The old metal cups did more harm than good. One did not want to be hit low. The rings themselves were real 25 x 25 rings, which required movement. The ropes were of little help, and fighters were more likely to get tangled up or fall though them. Oh there’s more. The fights themselves often took place in stuffy non-air conditions smoke filled rooms, or worse in broad day light under the sun’s heat. Has anyone has played pick up basketball on a hot day? If this were a fight, how long could you last? Just imagine fighting in such a condition. Money? Ha-ha. Today a guy makes a million dollars for a fight, then he goes soft. In old timers days, top athletes made money some, but could not get rich like fighters can today. Fighting was a way for most to pay the bills for old timers, not retire as a rich man. The referee’s were much slower to stop fight, and if you watch the films, many old timers took pride in getting up as many times as possible.

Lastly, if your comparing old time athletes, with modern athletes, lets fact or in years of film + advancement of the sport, nutrition, and “ Supplements “ The only way to level the playing field is to place the modern athletes in old times under their rules, or project the old time athletes getting modern , such as modern trainers, nutrition, and ahem…supplements.

The best comparison between an old time fighter and a modern fighter would be vs a stray cat, and domesticated cat. The domesticated cat might be bigger, but who would you pick to win in a scrap in a closed room?

In most cases I don’t rank 180-200 pound men highly unless of course they had tremendous power, good skills, and excellent durability. Power in boxing has a way to level the playing field regardless of weight, and those who have great chins and stamina, are always dangerous in the late rounds.


Excellent post!
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:00 PM   #8
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Default Re: New v Old

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I agree with this. Having said that here is a peice I wrote a while back on Old timers.
are you Z
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Old 03-17-2008, 09:11 PM   #9
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: New v Old

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
In the light of Klitschkos "thrilling " win over some other Russian ,do you think either of them would be prepared to put themselves through the pain barrier in a set to like the Jeffries v Sharkey killer.?Or are todays heavys made of less sterner stuff?
I think today's people in general are much less tough than 100 or even 50 years ago, because we have too much luxery. That said, boxers have always been the tougher elite of society. Wladimir Klitschko does not have the mentality of a Graziano, but rather he's a smart fighter who does not take unneccesary risks. Now i do think he took that too far in the recent stinker against Sultan, but during all other fights over his career it worked excellent and allows him to still be in his prime past his 30's, while most of the old fighters were done at 30. Of course, their busier schedule also played a big factor there.

But him, Peter, Valuev, Chagaev, Holyfield, Maskaev, Povetkin, etc have not even shown a sign of quitting and always got up from knockdowns, so to me there's no question about their heart.

Same goes for the lower weight divisions with guys like Marquez, Calzaghe, Hopkins, Mayweather, Cotto, Kessler, Jones, Pacquiao..... those guys are tough as nails.
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