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Old 11-27-2012, 02:42 PM   #46
Unforgiven
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"Spinks and Berbick"

You rate them above Tyson?
Before Tyson beat Berbick, yes.
Everyone did.


Quote:
"Tillis"

Beating Tillis makes you #1?
No.

Many would argue that Witherspoon beat Holmes.


Quote:

I think it kind of a spectacular stretch to consider Witherspoon ever the best heavyweight in the world.
But several people did.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:51 PM   #47
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Not his fault at all.
But he struggled with a couple of them, quite severely, when he seemed to have all the advantages.
That should make people question this supposed "reign of dominance", but apparently not.



And can anyone explain how and why Corbett - who hadn't won a fight in 6 years, and had been KO'd and beaten up in the mean time - managed to be viewed in such a way ?
It beggar's belief.

What's worse is that Jeffries had a really hard time putting him away.
I am not disagreeing with you ,just trying to look at it as it was viewed or,as I imagine it was viewed at the time.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #48
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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I am not disagreeing with you ,just trying to look at it as it was viewed or,as I imagine it was viewed at the time.


Yeah, and I'm putting the question out to everyone on the thread.

Can anyone explain how Corbett was considered a top, logical contender on the back off 6 years win-less and two serious defeats ?
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:00 PM   #49
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

"he lost three fights in his prime years"

Three more than Jeffries lost.

"significantly smaller man"

This doesn't matter. This man was heavyweight champion for five years.

"WORTHY OF CRITICISM"

But how worthy? He won decisively in the end. Great old fighters sometimes pull it together for a last hurrah. Perhaps Corbett did. Be that as it may, Jeff did not lose as Witherspoon did, nor did he let it go to the judgement of an official.

And it speaks volumes that the focus of criticism is on a Jeffries ko victory over a former champion.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:01 PM   #50
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Yeah, and I'm putting the question out to everyone on the thread.

Can anyone explain how Corbett was considered a top, logical contender on the back off 6 years win-less and two serious defeats ?
How was Foreman, coming off a loss to Tommy Morrison?

But Foreman won.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:26 PM   #51
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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How was Foreman, coming off a loss to Tommy Morrison?

But Foreman won.

Foreman wasn't considered a top contender for Moorer.
It was largely considered a cynical match-up.

The fact that Foreman somehow won doesn't change the fact that he was an undeserving contender.
If Moorer had won, no one would have congratulated him on 'beginning to clean out the current contenders'.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:59 PM   #52
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

Unforgiven, are you possibly hinting that times were different in the 1983 than they were in 1900?

Perish the thought.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:00 PM   #53
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Yeah, and I'm putting the question out to everyone on the thread.

Can anyone explain how Corbett was considered a top, logical contender on the back off 6 years win-less and two serious defeats ?
Childs, Klondike, or Martin would seem to have been as least as qualified as Corbett in 1900, but of course they lacked one crucial qualification.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:25 PM   #54
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

Unforgiven pulling a PP here.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #55
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Childs, Klondike, or Martin would seem to have been as least as qualified as Corbett in 1900, but of course they lacked one crucial qualification.
Martin wasn't realy seen as a top contender until a bit later. Klondike was never realy seen as being world class anyway.

The top black contenders around the time of the first Corbett fight were George Byers, Frank Childs and Bob Armstrong.

Its not hard to see how an inactive Corbett was seen as abetter bet.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Tubbs, Smith, Page and Bruno are superior H2H heavyweights than any middleweight Jeffries beat. And the WBA World Heavyweight Title is superior to the White North American Title


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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
I think the major points have been made.

"Jeffries dominated an era, while Witherspoon was just a contender"

Janitor puts his finger on the bottom line here.

In terms of historical greatness, this is no contest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about head to head?

For me it is a meaningless criteria, and becoming more meaningless year by year as the sizes of modern athletes explode.

Probably any ordinary, even losing, modern NFL team could beat the 1960's Packers who won five championships (and whose largest player was 260 lbs) and any ordinary, even losing, NBA team could handle the Celtics of the 1950's & 1960's who won 11 titles in 13 years (and whose tallest regular was Bill Russell, at about 6' 9.5").

A criteria which places mediocrity in one's own time over greatness in the distant past is useless to me.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:15 PM   #57
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Martin wasn't realy seen as a top contender until a bit later. Klondike was never realy seen as being world class anyway.

The top black contenders around the time of the first Corbett fight were George Byers, Frank Childs and Bob Armstrong.

Its not hard to see how an inactive Corbett was seen as abetter bet.
The 1900 Corbett might have had his work cut out with any of the top black guys.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:31 PM   #58
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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The 1900 Corbett might have had his work cut out with any of the top black guys.
In hindsight, I seriously doubt it.

The coloured heavyweight champion when Jeffries won the title was George Byers, who lost to Tommy West. He was simply not in the class of Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Corbett or McCoy.

Jeffries didn't fight the top coloured contenders at this stage, because none of them were in the championship class.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #59
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

[quote=janitor;14285171]In hindsight, I seriously doubt it.

The coloured heavyweight champion when Jeffries won the title was George Byers, who lost to Tommy West. He was simply not in the class of Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Corbett or McCoy.

Jeffries didn't fight the top coloured contenders at this stage, because none of them were in the championship class.[/quote]



Jeffries didnt fight them because no one insisted he did, as a challenger, he was happy to fight lesser blacks such as Armstrong whom he beat by 10rds dec in 1898 .That same year Childs stopped Armstrong twice. In fact Childs had better results over the same opponents, Henry Baker went 9rds with Jeffries, Childs stopped him in 3. Are you seriously telling me Corbett had better current form that Childs in 1900 ?

Which black challengers did Corbett,McCoy, Fitz,and Sharkey beat to demonstrate this superiority?

Lets be honest here, once he won the title, nothing on God's earth would get Jeffries in the ring with a black challenger .
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:52 PM   #60
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

I can see people ranking spoon as the better fighter in the ring but greatness wise it really is no contest.

Say what you want about Jeffries defences but there's no dispute that they were the best of the division. Just like rocky and just like wlad today it can be called a weak era but all a champ can do is beat his beat contenders. sure he could have sealed the deal by beating a young Johnson but his legacy was signed sealed and delivered long by then.
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