Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Australian Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-28-2012, 03:50 AM   #31
boxon123
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,183
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

His record has Fighting Harada, Ruben Olivares and Rafael Limon amongst others!
There were 8 world champions in the only 8 divisions at the time and boxers fought ten times a year.
In the 60s your friends would have kicked your ass for being a **** wit and you wouldn't have sued them.
boxon123 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-28-2012, 04:01 AM   #32
Crusher
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxon123 View Post
His record has Fighting Harada, Ruben Olivares and Rafael Limon amongst others!
There were 8 world champions in the only 8 divisions at the time and boxers fought ten times a year.
In the 60s your friends would have kicked your ass for being a **** wit and you wouldn't have sued them.
Good post.
Crusher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:09 AM   #33
WhataRock
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11,622
vCash: 166
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Absolutely positively underrated...should be in the IBHOF.

Good to see it didn't take long to get some sense in this thread.
WhataRock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:48 AM   #34
perko
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 694
vCash: 500
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Ippys post says it for me too , Rose fought in the era of legends .Can any of these so called champs today get 250.000 people out in the streets for a ticker tape parade after winning a world title. A great great fighter and person.
perko is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 09:59 AM   #35
Reality hurts
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 7
vCash: 500
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

You could say his Australias best fighter.

Last edited by Reality hurts; 11-28-2012 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Left a word out
Reality hurts is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 04:22 PM   #36
percy davo
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 243
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Lionel Rose certainly underrated. Good post Ippy.
percy davo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:16 PM   #37
swingin
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,501
vCash: 500
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhataRock View Post

Absolutely positively underrated...should be in the IBHOF.

.
im SHOCKED, that he ISNT!!! someone has to petition for that. WOW!
swingin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 09:21 PM   #38
left jab danny
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,198
vCash: 13001
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

You know you've made it when the biggest superstar in the world wants a photo with you
left jab danny is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 10:03 PM   #39
atigerofold
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 274
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Lionel: An incredible world class boxer; who married his defensive and attacking block buster jabs, with left rip, left hook, right cross combos freely on the front and back foot.
Fenech doesnt deserve to be spoken about in the same paragraph as Lionel....but...at bantam or super bantam, and at Rose's peak time 1968, I would put my house and cars on Rose to knock Fenech out within in the first five rounds. (In my view, Fenech styled himself on a Harada walk up)
Lionel's lossage rate is heavy towards his end of career/bouts, and mostly
due to the fact that he was straining himself so much to make weight.
He had the build of a light welter weight from waist up.
To think Rose was over rated, and to get on here and state this? baaah...it just shows the ignorance, yes, and the sacreligious mentality of unaware opinionmakers of these times. Damn you...and most people who did some research would say that you are remiss to suggest or state this.

Last edited by atigerofold; 11-28-2012 at 10:32 PM.
atigerofold is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 10:23 PM   #40
peterm
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 427
vCash: 500
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Definately one of our best ever. He got more people to greet him when he won the title than mundine or green have had to see all of there fights . I remember when he won the title it was one of the biggest news stories of the year .Not back page of the paper like these days.
peterm is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 10:31 PM   #41
AdamH
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 267
vCash: 500
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

troll thread
AdamH is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 10:37 PM   #42
The Spider
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by left jab danny View Post
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

You know you've made it when the biggest superstar in the world wants a photo with you
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 05:01 PM   #43
Rodin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,269
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipswich express View Post
Really surprised to read this on the Aussie forum, but good to see it's started an interesting debate. His win over Harada was in my opinion, the greatest victory by an Australian boxer, ever. To understand how great a win it was, you have to understand just how great Masahiko Harada was.

He stopped Pone Kingpetch (25-3 at the time) for the Flyweight world title. Kingpetch got his revenge in the return. He finished his career as a 3 time world champion. Harada eventually beat the legendary Eder Jofre for the Bantamweight world title in 1965. Jofre was 47-0-3 at the time. He made defenses against Alan Rudkin (23-1), Jofre again, Joe Medel (who had previously beaten him - Rose beat him too in a non-title bout), and Bernardo Caraballo (51-1-2 at the time).

He was an absolute wrecking ball at the time Rose faced him. Make no mistake, Harada was one of the greatest Asian fighters of all time. I ranked him 94 on my list that I posted in here a few years ago.

Rose beat Harada and then made his first defence against the 1964 Olympic Gold Medalist Takao Sakuri, again in Japan! He then faced Medel at Super Bantam in a non-title bout before defending against Chucho Castillo (34-7) and Alan Rudkin (36-4). He ended up losing his title to a living legend in Ruben Olivares. By this point Lionel pretty much couldn't force his body down to Bantamweight.

That stretch of 1967-1969, beginning with Gattellari, ranks up there with any level of opposition ever faced by an Australian boxer. You also need to consider that this was arguably the strongest time in the history of the Bantamweight division.

Often overlooked when speaking of Rose's career was him losing a razor thin decision in Japan at Super Featherweight for the WBC title! Yoshiaki Numata himself was a 2 time world champion and he beat Rose by 2 points on all cards over 15 rounds.

I think you can actually make a much stronger argument for Rose being underrated, than overrated.

I just read about this thread elsewhere.

Thanks for that Ippy.
Like anything at the elite level, it's hard, no, impossible, to understand what it's like to be assaulted for 15 continuous rounds.
Ask anyone that has sparred some serious rounds how they would feel doing 15 serious rounds.
You will seldom receive an utterance of any sense.

Unless you're talking to "old man" here, whose done several of them.

It wasn't so much about Lionels background that got my attention. He looked like he was doing alright with Jack. It was the way he fought, "Hit him, you'll get two back".

In addition to what's already been written here, I add.
Chu Chu Castillo never had a chin. He had a chunk, & it wasn't connected to his brain.
To compound his remarkable resilience, he had no reverse unless he was pounded backwards. No mean feat. Lionel did it, & virtually his own back yard, with at least a hundred men in that stadium that would kill him, & Jack, should he win.
This was no "Biased" crowd. They were "obsessed".
Lionel did just that, in the face of what everyone knew, including the judges, & it wasn't until 4 AM that they drifted through the ruins to their escape.

To this day, ironically, for some perverse reason Ruben Olivaries is one of my all time greats.
Watching Lionel dragging himself to his feet after a body punch dropped him in the 2nd round, I felt a draining, as I knew Ruben was never going to let a weight drained fighter off the hook.

It was a strange feeling. A sort of admiration that any man that bested Lionel had to be a legend. & thus he became mine.

It's hard enough to separate great fighters. Punches hurt, & they take their toll.

To tragics like me, there is something of a virus one gets when you witness something, someone special, watching him being counted out, consoled that he's conscious, convinced that the time was right, & courteous to hand his crown to another legend, that even after so many years, so many class acts, the career of one person sits in a little patch in you mind, & occasionally he gets stirred with "Gee, that kids good. Fights like Lionel".
Rodin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 06:27 PM   #44
ipswich express
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,935
vCash: 75
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Good post Pops. Well written.
ipswich express is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 03:04 AM   #45
atigerofold
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 274
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Lionel rose overrated

Something else that is very remiss from today's newest boxing "experts{(?) is their lack of understanding, or information/knowledge on how things were assessed in those times in the sixties, how a boxer or trained calculated or evaluated how another boxers style. skill or attitude could actually be measured against a printed news article texst or magazine report...we forget that there were no videos at those times. (well they were rare at that time)

Often boxers/trainers/matchmakers of those times, had as their greatest resource of a boxers form, a highly awaited, monthly magazine, where hopefully, a commentary and rating of a fighter/boxer was described; journalists, rarely are boxing orientated, and the explicit skills of a champion or local boxer was never really revealed. It never told you pf a boxers confidence, attitude, spark, skill etc. etc. it was never provided. In fact, it was rare in Australia in the mid to late sixties that we saw film of anyone else internationally other than Casius Clay (Ali).

In smaller concessions this even happened across aussie land during TVRingside days, with many fighters fronting up to fight anyone, and everyone. I see that today often, and as a previous boxer/trainer, that contracts now, explicitly ask for a video of a boxer.....

All of what I have said needs to be factored into how well Lionel boxed champions who he had no visual (video) knowledge about, to build strategy upon.........in this context, we should also regard Lionels skill as being remarkable, and ready to take on any high rating person of those times......He never dodged anyone !!!

Lionel did fight a couple of poor boxers in his/their sunset years.....this is typical of many fighters who need some moola... it certainly does not mirror though, a regular strategy today where boxers dodge high skilled prospects and opt out for high lossage percentage prospectors......
atigerofold is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Australian Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013