Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Seamus

While I rank Tyson above WK in the H2H context, the Wlad of the past 5 years, much like the Tyson of the 3 years from 86-89, is very, very hard to defeat. He has barely lost a round over that time span, a time span that is longer than the reigns of Frazier, Tyson, Marciano, Liston, Patterson...

In a gut to gut contest Wladimir certainly beats Mike Tyson.

Even his own brother gave up after his loss against Brewster.
Nobody believed he could still be in and yet he climbed back up.

Then again Chuvalo beats Wlad too who lost 2 sons by drug overdoses, another one by suicide and his wife by suicide... (in a g2g contest)

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by Seamus

While I rank Tyson above WK in the H2H context, the Wlad of the past 5 years, much like the Tyson of the 3 years from 86-89, is very, very hard to defeat. He has barely lost a round over that time span, a time span that is longer than the reigns of Frazier, Tyson, Marciano, Liston, Patterson...

Longevity means nothing if you haven't been tested. Wlad has fought nobody in his whole life that comes close to Tyson.

[JAB5239]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

The best version of Mike Tyson is the best HW in history. He was faster and had better punching technique than them all.

That list self defeated itself by having Wlad K number 8 and Tyson at 11 and is obvious the guy understands boxing on a very basic level.

You seemed to miss the point. I think Tyson beats both Klits h2h. I don't think he matches up as well as either of them though against many other greats in history.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dyna

In a gut to gut contest Wladimir certainly beats Mike Tyson.

Even his own brother gave up after his loss against Brewster.
Nobody believed he could still be in and yet he climbed back up.

Then again Chuvalo beats Wlad too who lost 2 sons by drug overdoses, another one by suicide and his wife by suicide... (in a g2g contest)

Again, if you read my list, I picked Tyson very high and above Wlad in a head to head sense.

But it's a lot closer than you are suggesting. You do not dominate 7 or so years in the division by accident, something that not even Tyson could accomplish. And FYI, Vitali has admitted he doesn't have his bro's number.

[Webbiano]

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Louis
3. Muhmmad Ali
4. Mike Tyson
5. George Foreman
6. Sonny Liston
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Wladimir Klitschko
9. Larry Holmes
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Joe Frazier
12. Evander Holyfield

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Longevity means nothing if you haven't been tested. Wlad has fought nobody in his whole life that comes close to Tyson.

Longevity, when it is active longevity, actually does mean something. Almost by definition it means you have faced a larger variety of opponents with variants the lay observer (which is what the vast majority of us are) can not appreciate. It also means you have more rounds, more minutes, in front of large, world class fighters in a division that is known for matters being ended with a single punch.

Meanwhile, Tyson did fight someone who was a bit like a poor man's Wlad, a tall, big strong guy with a great jab and a stiff right hand... Buster Douglas.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Longevity, when it is active longevity, actually does mean something. Almost by definition it means you have faced a larger variety of opponents with variants the lay observer (which is what the vast majority of us are) can not appreciate. It also means you have more rounds, more minutes, in front of large, world class fighters in a division that is known for matters being ended with a single punch.

Meanwhile, Tyson did fight someone who was a bit like a poor man's Wlad, a tall, big strong guy with a great jab and a stiff right hand... Buster Douglas.

Nobody praises James Toney for all the nobody's he used to fight each year. Wlad could take 5-6 no risk fights a year and it wouldn't impress me. He isn't fighting the no.1 , 2s or 3s in the division and that is what matters.

Tyson was spiralling out of control when he faced Douglas. You know enough about that.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

He isn't fighting the no.1 , 2s or 3s in the division and that is what matters.

Yes, because none of these title defenses were highly ranked...

Hade
Chagaev
Brock
Eddie Chambers
Sultan Ibragimov
Chris Byrd
Sam Peter
Tony Thompson

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Yes, because none of these title defenses were highly ranked...

Hade
Chagaev
Brock
Eddie Chambers
Sultan Ibragimov
Chris Byrd
Sam Peter
Tony Thompson

Highly ranked by who, the sanctioning bodies? 3 are CWs and the rest have done nothing.

[Bummy Davis]

everyone of these guys have had trouble with certain fighters,

Lewis got starched 2X by good right hand punchers (not remarkable punchers) and Lennox only had a total of 43 fights (very good competition but could be argued that his best opponents were past prime) Lewis also never KO'd a man after 8rounds so I find him vulnerable to the 15 round fighters and the punchers especially those with stamina

Holmes went down by guys that were proven easily overcome, Shavers who had Cobb,Mercado,Lyle,Stander and others down or in trouble before being overcome not to mention being dominated by Quarry and 20-25 trial horse Bob Stallings, another guy to put Holmes down hard was Renaldo Snipes who got dropped 2X vs Coetzee and had King steal the decision to get a title shot instead of Coetzee (which almost backfired) From the HOLMES FIGHT ON THE 22 FIGHT SNIPES ONLY WON 1 OF HIS NEXT 7 FIGHTS...When Holmes took on a different level of class although past it (Spinks in his 1st Heavyweight fight) and Tyson he was beaten



Foreman had stamina problems and was beaten by Ali and Young and almost Lyle (leads you to believe he would have lost more had he upped his level of opposition

Tyson only once KO'd a man after 8 rounds (Jose Ribalta TKO) and had severe mental issues and quit more than once...A great early starter but how does he do against someone that does not fear him (Douglas,Evander,Williams,McBride,Lewis)


Liston (level of opposition poor other than Patterson and Machen) Quit or got blasted by Ali and Flat Ko'd by a somewhat decent puncher (when older) in Leotis Martin (who weighed under 200lbs..I think you need more than a win over Cleveland Williams to be a head to head king or we may have to bring in Bob Satterfield

Ali adapted well to the big slow guys but was troubled by the smaller better conditioned men like Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Frazier, Leon Spinks, Patterson

I have trouble with these head to head match ups because all fighters are vulnerable to a style

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Again, if you read my list, I picked Tyson very high and above Wlad in a head to head sense.

But it's a lot closer than you are suggesting. You do not dominate 7 or so years in the division by accident, something that not even Tyson could accomplish. And FYI, Vitali has admitted he doesn't have his bro's number.

Yea, people like to think ATGs are very apart in distance of each other while they're all very close.
Being elite and non elite is just a very small line.

It just takes a very small amount of being extra good to be an ATG, but that last bit of being better means the most.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Highly ranked by who, the sanctioning bodies? 3 are CWs and the rest have done nothing.

Then again, Ali and all the previous hw champs, Holmes and Tyson also beat cruisers.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Highly ranked by who, the sanctioning bodies? 3 are CWs and the rest have done nothing.

Of the 3 that are "cruiserweights", 2 held a belt at heavyweight, and the third was top rated in 2 organizations. Sam Peter = WBC Heavyweight Champ. Sultan Ibragimov = WBO Heavyweight Champ. Calvin Brock #1 rated IBF Heavyweight. Ruslan Chavaev = WBA Heavyweight Champ. David Haye = WBA Heavyweight Champ. Chris Byrd = WBO/IBF Heavyweight Champ. Lamon Brewster = WBO Champion.

So, Wlad tore through a group of champs and former champs in the slintered title era. Sound familiar? Perhaps typical of the accomplishments of the crowd that Tyson drove through during the late-80's?

And if "cruiserweights" are a detriment to a heavyweight's record, let's re-examine the legacy of Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano...

[dinovelvet]

Somebody had to hold those belts. Its means nothing. In terms of boxing skill and technique , the HW division is not what it used it be.

Byrd , Chambers and Haye left no mark in the HW scene that will be remembered.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Somebody had to hold those belts. Its means nothing. In terms of boxing skill and technique , the HW division is not what it used it be.

Byrd , Chambers and Haye no mark in the HW scene that will be remembered.

Byrd is very skilled, and Haye has brute power for his weight (might be due to his style too)
If people compare Haye his power to Wlad to be somewhat equal and sparring partners regulary say Wlad hit them the hardest ever that means atleast one very big thing.