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Old 12-02-2012, 07:37 AM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

Quarry was a talented fighter in some regards. He had a nice counter hook. He had stamina, a solid chin and guts to spare. His hand speed was very good for a heavyweight too.






However his power was just OK. He was small. He had issues with cuts, and above all else he didn’t always fight smart. There were times when Quarry should have boxed, but he opted to slug and vice versa.





Jeffries is bigger, and hits harder. Quarry would not be too hard to find. I would pick Jeffries to take Quarry out in the mid to late rounds. Jeffries athleticism, hand speed, footwork and defensive abilities remain misunderstood by many modern boxing fans. Lack of film is the primary reason. The film of him in the ring that survives runs slow, and is choppy. Yet the papers of the time, and Jeffries opponents all spoke of the above attributes. And his training film which is clear and up close for views concurs with the news papers.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Quarry was a talented fighter in some regards. He had a nice counter hook. He had stamina, a solid chin and guts to spare. His hand speed was very good for a heavyweight too.






However his power was just OK. He was small. He had issues with cuts, and above all else he didnít always fight smart. There were times when Quarry should have boxed, but he opted to slug and vice versa.





Jeffries is bigger, and hits harder. Quarry would not be too hard to find. I would pick Jeffries to take Quarry out in the mid to late rounds. Jeffries athleticism, hand speed, footwork and defensive abilities remain misunderstood by many modern boxing fans. Lack of film is the primary reason. The film of him in the ring that survives runs slow, and is choppy. Yet the papers of the time, and Jeffries opponents all spoke of the above attributes. And his training film which is clear and up close for views concurs with the news papers.

Would not this, "lack of film" also apply to yourself?

Or, do you possess footage that others have hitherto not seen?

Did Jeffries hit harder than Quarry?

On what do you base this premise?

Was Jeffries superior to Quarry in handspeed,footwork,defensive ability?

The limited footage would appear to indicate otherwise.

Jeffries was cut to pieces by a near forty years old 172lbs man who was coming out of two years retirement.


Also ,when was Jeffries hit by combinations from a real heavyweight?

Nineteen of his twenty three opponents were under 190lbs.At least eleven of them by very significant margins.
Please elaborate on his inherent advantages over Quarry.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Jeffries was cut to pieces by a near forty years old 172lbs man who was coming out of two years retirement.
It is my hunch that the Fitzsimmons that Jeffries fought second time round, would probably have torn Quarry a new anus.

Take it or leave it.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
It is my hunch that the Fitzsimmons that Jeffries fought second time round, would probably have torn Quarry a new anus.

Take it or leave it.

Confrontational?



Reports of the second Fitz Jeffries fight say that Fitz reamed out Jeffries rectum pretty good, and that Jeffries only won because of his huge weight, size, and age advantages.
I've posted them before.
I haven't made a pick here but I'm immune to fairy tales, and hyperbole.


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I repeat what I have stated previously.

NO FIGHT FOOTAGE EXTANT SHOWS JEFFRIES DEMONSTRATING THIS VAUNTED SPEED, AND ELUSIVE DEFENSIVE ABILITIES .
TAKE OR LEAVE THAT.

Last edited by mcvey; 12-02-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Confrontational?
Just context.

Quote:
Reports of the second Fitz Jeffries fight say that Fitz reamed out Jeffries rectum pretty good, and that Jeffries only won because of his huge weight, size, and age advantages.
I've posted them before.

I haven't made a pick here but I'm immune to fairy tales, and hyperbole.
Jeffries won because his body attack broke Fitzsimmons down.

Whatever his age and weight, Fitzsimmons was still a terifying fighter.

Quote:
NO FIGHT FOOTAGE EXTANT SHOWS JEFFRIES DEMONSTRATING THIS VAUNTED SPEED, AND ELUSIVE DEFENSIVE ABILITIES .
TAKE OR LEAVE THAT.
I think that the training footage has to be taken into acount.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

We absolutely cannot dispute that quarry looks better on film.

Picking a great based on legend is always a bit iffy to me.

Jeffries was usually a backfoot fighter until he was battered by fitz.

Does any footage suggest Jeffries could outbox Quarry? I haven't seen it if so.

Maybe there isn't enough footage of Jeffries in his prime which is fair enough but without that footage he can not be favoured.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

[quote=janitor;14318379]
Quote:

Just context.



Jeffries won because his body attack broke Fitzsimmons down.

Whatever his age and weight, Fitzsimmons was still a terifying fighter.



I think that the training footage has to be taken into acount.

Jeffries won because Fitz smashed his hands on his head , he was also fighting with a dislocated thumb.
Hype Igoe who was ringside stated it was the worst beating he ever saw one man inflict on another ,worse than the beating Dempsey gave Willard.

Training footage means nothing imo .

Footage of Johnson training shows a very mobile, never stationary heavyweight busy with both hands constantly going.

In fact Johnson fought nothing like that .

The film we have of Jeffries fighting shows him laying back and countering against Sharkey,and plodding forward against Ruhlin, and Johnson.
Throw out the Johnson debacle ,that leaves us with him in his prime against Ruhlin ,who appears quicker afoot ,and better defensively.

Last edited by mcvey; 12-03-2012 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

[quote]
[quote=mcvey;14318464]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Jeffries won because Fitz smashed his hands on his head , he was also fighting with a dislocated thumb.
Hype Igoe who was ringside stated it was the worst beating he ever saw one man inflict on another ,worse than the beating Dempsey gave Willard.
The hands argument cuts both ways.

Fitzsimmons might have had hand problems, but he was also alowed to wear protective covers on his hands, which likley contributed to Jeffries facial damage.

Quote:
Training footage means nothing imo .Footage of Johnson training shows a very mobile, never stationary heaVyweight busy with both hands constantly going. In fact Johnson fought nothing like that the film we have of Jeffries fighting shows him laying back and countering against Sharkey,and plodding forward against Ruhlin, and Johnson.
Throw out the Johnson debacle ,that leaves us with him in his prime against Ruhlin ,who appears quicker afoot ,and better defensively.
It is endlesly frustrating trying to reconstruct Jeffries and Johnson based on the available fight footage. Perhaps the sparring footage gives us a glimpse of the bits that we are missing?
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

[quote=mcvey;14318464]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post


Jeffries won because Fitz smashed his hands on his head , he was also fighting with a dislocated thumb.
Hype Igoe who was ringside stated it was the worst beating he ever saw one man inflict on another ,worse than the beating Dempsey gave Willard.

Training footage means nothing imo .Footage of Johnson training shows a very mobile, never stationary heaVyweight busy with both hands constantly going. In fact Johnson fought nothing like that the film we have of Jeffries fighting shows him laying back and countering against Sharkey,and plodding forward against Ruhlin, and Johnson.
Throw out the Johnson debacle ,that leaves us with him in his prime against Ruhlin ,who appears quicker afoot ,and better defensively.
agreed. and without film of jeffries fight, much of this is speculation. but that's the fun isn't it.

based on styles this is interesting and i'm glad to see quarry isn't being outright dismissed.

question for the experts: how identical to jeffries would chuvalo be? in terms of style and toughness, would that give us any indication how the layout of the fight would be?
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:47 PM   #25
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question for the experts: how identical to jeffries would chuvalo be? in terms of style and toughness, would that give us any indication how the layout of the fight would be?
I have always felt the comparison to be a misguided one.

They both had good chins and fought out of a crouch, but that is where the similarity ends.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

Those that saw Jeff in his prime ranked him as a very heavy hitter. Along the same Vein as Dempsey and Louis.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:33 PM   #27
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Those that saw Jeff in his prime ranked him as a very heavy hitter. Along the same Vein as Dempsey and Louis.
Those who saw him painted a mixed picture.

Those who were actually on the receiving end of said punches, upheld his power.

I think that Jeffries had power, but he didn't quite know what to do with it.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

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I have always felt the comparison to be a misguided one.

They both had good chins and fought out of a crouch, but that is where the similarity ends.
i agree it's not perfect but any means but would you say it's the closest comparison we have?

i think it gives us a small indication of how the styles match up. i feel that jeffries would be able to push quarry back and set up the right hand. however, would that play into quarry's gameplan as a counterpuncher? how effective would jeffries bodywork be?

over 15 rounds, would jeffries steady and physical grind-down take too long, leaving the way for a possible quarry decision?
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:59 AM   #29
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[quote=janitor;14318561][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

The hands argument cuts both ways.

Fitzsimmons might have had hand problems, but he was also alowed to wear protective covers on his hands, which likley contributed to Jeffries facial damage.



It is endlesly frustrating trying to reconstruct Jeffries and Johnson based on the available fight footage. Perhaps the sparring footage gives us a glimpse of the bits that we are missing?
Jeffries carefully examined Fitzsimmons hand wraps in the ring prior to the start, its in the report. Fitz was a 39 years old 172lbs ex champion who was conceding 47lbs, 12 years to Jeffries and ,he had been retired for 2 years.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:16 AM   #30
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Default Re: Jeffries v Quarry

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Those that saw Jeff in his prime ranked him as a very heavy hitter. Along the same Vein as Dempsey and Louis.
When compared to Fitz , his results against common opponents do not stand up.
The distance that several of his better opposition went against him suggests a good but not explosive hitter who relied on attrition to wear his man down.
Damage inflicted on a couple of his challengers is always cited as proof he was a dynamite puncher. I believe smaller gloves, and the fact that most of his challlengers were significantly smaller than him was the reason for this.

If a 220lbs man is hitting an incoming 170/175lbs man with little gloves he should make an impression on him don't you think?
Jeffries hurt Ruhlin to the body, and his corner pulled Gus out, but Ruhlin had been beaten into the ground by Fitzsimmons a year earlier, he lay in a coma like state all night with blood coming out of his ears and a doctor in attendance because there was a real fear he might succumb to his injuries.
Reports stressed how Fitz caved in Ruhlin with body shots.

Jeffries cracked Sharkey's rib so it is claimed ,well 12 weeks later, Sharkey kod Joe Goddard, quick recovery for what is a very painful injury I can assure you.
Sharkey conceding loads of weight, and height ,twice went the distance with Jeffries yet Fitz twice took him out with one punch kos.

The evidence points to Jeffries being a good but not devasting hitter .
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