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Old 12-03-2012, 02:04 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

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yes I do. The variable was Ray in all 3 fights. Ray decides to fight Duran's fight he loses. Ray decided to box and fight his fight he wins. It is that simple to me. The ease with which Ray beat Duran in the 2nd and 3rd fights, coupled with Benitez easily being Duran and the Hearns fight showed speed of an elite were trouble for Duran. If you mention weight I will just say Duran fought at 154 as early as 1978, and as far as age. 29-32 years old is not old for a guy who won his last title at 38 and fought until he was 50. yet he did not fight the type of elites he fought in the 1980s.. Had he fought a guy like Roy Jones he would have lost again. Even the 30 year old Duran. Or had he fought Whitaker. I love Duran ,but speed of an elite was trouble for him. A warrior he was and he could be devastating and he fought everyone. But to give him credit in the Leonard fights and discard Benitez and Hearns just because it is favorable to him? That takes away from those greats.
What are we going to do with you, MAG? All this hyperbole I'm throwing out, and you just put it to shame. These are things you actually believe through and through. It would've been a disaster had Duran not gone hog mode and been in similar condition that he was that June. I don't excuse the loss for the simple belief that he was never going to regain that form no matter when the rematch took place. I don't see that style paying dividends if he'd fought the guy he faced in Montreal. Duran would be in supreme condition, track him down and cut him off -- Leonard hardly let his hands go at all. It was really a pretty terrible fight. You turning Duran's longevity against him has no basis in how long and when he was "prime". It's terribly obvious he was didn't wear the weight well whatsoever when he moved beyond 147 on a more permanent basis.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:34 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

Duran moved up to 147 at the age of 26, a similar age to Napoles, Mayweather and Whitaker. They're all shorter guys who carry the weight well enough

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"Green" Leonard had already ran through a half-dozen welterweight contenders and beaten Benitez on the big stage at Caesar's Palace. "Green" Leonard didn't fight his fight. Angelo tells it, prior to the first bout:

"Duran's a heel-to-toe guy, he takes two steps to get to you. So the idea is don't give him the two steps, don't move too far away. The more distance you give Duran, the more effective he is. What you don't do against aggression is run from it, because then he picks up momentum. My guy won't run from him."

"He's soft. Leonard's the puncher in this fight. I think he's going to knock him out in 10 or 11 rounds because Duran hasn't destroyed anybody as a Welterweight... Ray's going to nail him. Ray's going to stop him in his tracks with the jab. Leonard's got so much talent they haven't seen it yet."
On that basis you must consider Duran prime and peak for Dejesus 1?

Piss poor gameplan wasn't it, boxing and moving was clearly the foil to get the win over Duran, I suppose Dundee thought Leonard was the bigger stronger guy, wrong wasn't he?
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

Never claimed SRL was peak in Montreal, only that saying he was "green" as MAG has asserted in the recent past is ludicrous and more of a disservice to Leonard than anything. Duran was closer to being washed up than Leonard was to being green. He'd wiped the floor with the division's B-level top ten guys - the type who would be compiled on a ledger over an extended title reign - and already made the jump to elite in dethroning Benitez, further harnessed it in looking sensational against Green... He was absolutely ready and in his general prime.

Leonard was the bigger, stronger and faster guy. He couldn't of imagined how badly and often Duran would make him miss and pay for it. If Leonard isn't fast enough to hit you with clean, hard shots with any type of consistentcy or rhythm -- nobody is. He was nullified by Duran's use of feints, dismayed by his ability to slip, roll and counter and completely overwhelmed on the inside. He got beat from pretty much all ranges and badly rocked twice from a well-timed/measured left hook and counter right hand over his jab, both from distance and this is only Round 4. Taken in it's totality, it's actually insane what went on here and couldn't of been pulled off by anything short of one of the very best fighters ever. If Leonard was anything short of the same class, he'd of folded right there. Anybody who questions his intenstinal fortitude isn't to be taken seriously. The fight itself was an embodiment of the spirit and soul of the sport, executed by two of the most skilled practitioners to breathe air. That's the long and short of it for me.

I'd peg Duran's prime as being between 1974-80, after he'd learned to utilize his jab to greater effect, add a multitude of feints to his arsenal, tighten up his defense and generally bring pressure of a far more educated variety. DeJesus no doubt beat an elite fighter, but he was a bit too crude - compared to himself - to call him a prime version for my tastes and it's honestly without bias I say that.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

I'm not sure if Duran was past prime as a 29yo with what many consider a career best performance. Leonard was faster and taller/rangier but not stronger, Duran was stronger and he filled the 147lb weight with plenty of functional strength, it suited him in that sense

Leonard was physically in his prime and was in no way green, he had plenty of quality wins already, some wins are underrated like Mayweather and Shields. I'd contend though he was not yet in his ring smart prime, which is something people forget when talking 'prime for prime'

I'd say the type of fight Montreal was, which didn't require as much movement suited him better than the rematch which needed allot of foot movement. Ultimately the 2 fights showed Duran showed he was the more skilled fighter in range, Leonard showed he had more stamina and the legs to outspeed/outbox if he didn't look to 'fight' Duran. You could argue Duran was past prime at 147 and would have had the legs at 135, which may or may not be true. Still at 135 when he chased down Buchannan he didn't have the same refined skill set he later developed
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:48 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

Duran was built for 135 and stayed there many yrs. He was much less effective after having jumped over 140 all the way to 147

and at 29, how much did he have left? still, wit a handful of bouts at the new weight was able to get the job done,, as long as HE WAS IN DECENT SHAPE
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:51 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

as for Leonard u could say he was at a disadvantage experience wise. he never had great experience with his limited resume, but this wasnt exactly the Duran of 1976 either. in 1980, neither man was at his absolute best
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:53 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

He was coming off the greatest performance of his career going into New Orleans. He was absolutely in his prime, if at the tail end of it. It was the shape he turned up in and lack of conditioning for that particular fight that was different. Tyson has the same sob story, and it's simply too bad. But just as Douglas could've posed problems regardless, the style Leonard employed would've made for a far different fight, but it's one in which Duran could've been far better prepared to deal with. It wasn't a shutout as it was, and getting on his Kawasaki wasn't going to be enough to take the fight against a dedicated and persistent version. Duran was too good at closing distance thanks to his feinting and own underrated and economical footwork. Leonard would have to open up, and he could not outskill or outfight Duran inside to mid-range. It would've been close as all hell imo.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:56 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

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Hey MAG,

What type of effort do you think Robinson would make to fight Hearns if they shared the same era? Would he have the balls to fight him like Leonard did or would he be too pretty to suffer detached retinas in seizing greatness?

Do you think Hearns should rate above Hagler considering their H2H was at Hearns third best weight class and that he beat top fighters at 147, 154, 160, 168 and 175 alike compared to Marvin building his legacy solely at MW?
I think Robbie wouldve worn down the less experienced Hearns. he wouldve sniffed out his weakness which included lack of strength, & stamina. he just didnt look strong. What did he have, a nice left jab?

Robinson wins probably within 12

Tommy's best weight was probably 154-160 as one might expect from a man 6-1. Notice how nicely he had filled out with much needed muscle in the Duran fight on thru the Hutchins fight and in the Shuler fight, Tommy had never been better
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:09 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?



Hellooo rooster.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

Duran got schooled in so many fights lol I just like to point out that Dundee picked ortiz to beat mayweather he might not have been in his prime tho lol
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:23 AM   #41
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

I think Benitez from his Duran fight would school Duran in montreal Duran charging in with overhand rights and feints to setup his charge will not work with Benitez
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:06 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

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Never claimed SRL was peak in Montreal, only that saying he was "green" as MAG has asserted in the recent past is ludicrous and more of a disservice to Leonard than anything. Duran was closer to being washed up than Leonard was to being green. He'd wiped the floor with the division's B-level top ten guys - the type who would be compiled on a ledger over an extended title reign - and already made the jump to elite in dethroning Benitez, further harnessed it in looking sensational against Green... He was absolutely ready and in his general prime.

Leonard was the bigger, stronger and faster guy. He couldn't of imagined how badly and often Duran would make him miss and pay for it. If Leonard isn't fast enough to hit you with clean, hard shots with any type of consistentcy or rhythm -- nobody is. He was nullified by Duran's use of feints, dismayed by his ability to slip, roll and counter and completely overwhelmed on the inside. He got beat from pretty much all ranges and badly rocked twice from a well-timed/measured left hook and counter right hand over his jab, both from distance and this is only Round 4. Taken in it's totality, it's actually insane what went on here and couldn't of been pulled off by anything short of one of the very best fighters ever. If Leonard was anything short of the same class, he'd of folded right there. Anybody who questions his intenstinal fortitude isn't to be taken seriously. The fight itself was an embodiment of the spirit and soul of the sport, executed by two of the most skilled practitioners to breathe air. That's the long and short of it for me.

I'd peg Duran's prime as being between 1974-80, after he'd learned to utilize his jab to greater effect, add a multitude of feints to his arsenal, tighten up his defense and generally bring pressure of a far more educated variety. DeJesus no doubt beat an elite fighter, but he was a bit too crude - compared to himself - to call him a prime version for my tastes and it's honestly without bias I say that.
Spot on

Yep, when both where prepared for battle on a level playing field the better man & boxer prevailed

Thanks for putting everything i've ever said on this subject into plain english
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:17 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Duran moved up to 147 at the age of 26, a similar age to Napoles, Mayweather and Whitaker. They're all shorter guys who carry the weight well enough



On that basis you must consider Duran prime and peak for Dejesus 1?

Piss poor gameplan wasn't it, boxing and moving was clearly the foil to get the win over Duran, I suppose Dundee thought Leonard was the bigger stronger guy, wrong wasn't he?
I think there is a difference between a guy with 20 something fights and a couple dozen amateur bouts and someone with a similar number of fights and 150 amateur bouts. More to the point Duran wasn't quite at his peak; he was indisputably in his prime.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:59 AM   #44
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

[quote=MAG1965;14320205]yes I do. The variable was Ray in all 3 fights. Ray decides to fight Duran's fight he loses. Ray decided to box and fight his fight he wins. It is that simple to me. The ease with which Ray beat Duran in the 2nd and 3rd fights, coupled with Benitez easily being Duran and the Hearns fight showed speed of an elite were trouble for Duran. If you mention weight I will just say Duran fought at 154 as early as 1978, and as far as age. 29-32 years old is not old for a guy who won his last title at 38 and fought until he was 50. yet he did not fight the type of elites he fought in the 1980s.. Had he fought a guy like Roy Jones he would have lost again. Even the 30 year old Duran. Or had he fought Whitaker. I love Duran ,but speed of an elite was trouble for him. A warrior he was and he could be devastating and he fought everyone. But to give him credit in the Leonard fights and discard Benitez and Hearns just because it is favorable to him? That takes away from those greats.[/QUOTE

So do you think Duran was a better fighter beyond lightweight or not?
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:16 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

Hey mag I see what you're saying, however I think Leonard was at his peak for the first fight.
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