Classic James Toney stuff from 1993 haha

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

Phyiscal attributes:
Power: Eubank
Handspeed: Toney
Reflexes: Toney

Technical attributes
Jab: Toney
Defense: Toney
Offense: Toney
Footwork: Toney
Eubank's footwork could be downright sloppy at times, which is why he got dropped by guys like Collins and Calzaghe

Skillset: Toney
Toney is basically a improved version of Eubank. A counter puncher, with better handspeed and defense
Style advantage: Toney
Toney has beaten guys better than Eubank like McCallum. Johnson and Nunn. Eubank never beat anyone half as good as Toney. He struggled greatly with guys like Close, Malinga and Thornton.

Blueprint fight: Toney vs Reggie Johnson

How the fight plays out:
Eubank's lateral movement won't really be a major factor in this fight because guys like Collinsx2, Thornton and Benn found him in the ring, so Toney would be able to find him also.

Two things will happen during the fight:

Eubank takes the lead:
Euabnk never looked good fighting off the front foot. A lot of the time he looked awkward and off balance. This would work to Toney's favor because he will exploit all of the openings that Eubank's flawed offense provides. Eubank really wont have much luck getting past Toney's defense and will get caught with counter right crosses/uppercuts.

Toney takes the lead:
Toney had much better handspeed and reflexes than Eubank. So its going to be hard for Eubank to find opening for counters. To be effective as a counter puncher you really need to have a speed advantage over your opponent, something which Eubank does not have in this h2h fight.

If Eubank cant even beat a limited fighter like Collins than there is no way he beats someone like Toney
Toney wide ud

Toney would be able to find Eubank, but he wouldn't be able to hurt and vice versa. No a counter puncher doesn't always need a speed advantage - Holyfield was not faster than Tyson, yet he countered him all night. Toney wasn't that much quicker than Eubank - For instance Roy Jones would be too fast for Eubank to counter - Toney isn't.

I find it laughable that you mention Eubank's did struggle with Steve Collins and Joe Calzaghe - but what do they have in common with James Toney? You also fail to mention Toney's fights with Thadzi, Griffin and Tiberi where he got beat. Seems you definitely have it out for Eubank

Anyways, I see similarities between Eubank and Griffin - and while Toney's fights with Griffin could have gone either way, over 24 rounds he struggled with him no doubt. Griffin was no better than Eubank, and I see Toney struggling here as well.

By the way, this fight would be at SMW - not MW where Toney was at his best

[Earl-hickey]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...e_1704939c.jpg

[Loudon]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

I dont see any a win for Lewis againt 85 to 88 Mike in any shape or form mate. There are many reasons why, but the main one for me is Lewis's footspeed against Mikes footspeed. Lewis didn't have the foot work to elude Mike into the late rounds.

Lewis was more top heavy and relied on his brute strenght and size opposed to Mike who was far more sturdy on his feet and generated power from his legs to plants his shots. Trade for trade i think Lewis is more at risk of being dropped.

On top of that, factor in blinding speed, knockout power, Tyson uppercuts, brutal bodywork and impenetrable defence, Lewis would need a miricle to get the win.

I know sCAFF is no Lewis, but how could to last 6 rounds or more of this!
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I agree entirely.

The Rooney version of Tyson wanted to fight, and he wanted to train. He was in incredible shape and he was focused. All of that changed when Givens came on the scene, and King got hold of him. At that point he was never going to be the same.

Mike boxing at 100% of his capabilites, definitely beats Lennox in my opinion.

It's unbelievable that Mike was finished at only 23/24 after the Douglas loss. The money, the fame, the women, it was too much for him. How many fights did he really train for, where he gave absolutely everything?

I knew he wasn't going to beat Evander. I could see it coming. He didn't have the focus. He was there physically, but not mentally. A younger version of Mike would never have got frustrated like he did.

King just cashed him out. How many trainers did he end up going through? The 2002 fight with Lennox was a circus. It should never have been signed.

Mike could have been one of the greatest fighters of all time.


Regards, Loudon.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by Earl-hickey

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...e_1704939c.jpg

http://www.boxnews.com.ua/photos/110...er-Toney10.jpg

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney would be able to find Eubank, but he wouldn't be able to hurt and vice versa.

Eubank couldn't take body punches. It's the reason he was hitting and holding against Benn II, so Benn couldn't go to the body. It also explains why he turned down the McCallum fight.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

No a counter puncher doesn't always need a speed advantage - Holyfield was not faster than Tyson, yet he countered him all night.

That was due to Tyson being so predictable and telegraphing his left hooks.

To be a counter puncher you have to wait for opponent to commit to a punch then exploit the opening his offense provides. Eubank wasn't even able to do that consistently against a plodder like Collins

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney wasn't that much quicker than Eubank - For instance Roy Jones would be too fast for Eubank to counter - Toney isn't.

Who did Eubank fight who was as fast as Toney?
He had his hands full with slow Collins

Originally Posted by knockout artist

I find it laughable that you mention Eubank's did struggle with Steve Collins and Joe Calzaghe - but what do they have in common with James Toney?

I said that Eubank's footwork was sloppy and I gave fights which highlighted that fact: Collins and Calzaghe.

He squared himself up and got dropped by a pillow fisted Collins. He also was lunging and off balance when he got dropped by Calzaghe.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

You also fail to mention Toney's fights with Thadzi, Griffin and Tiberi where he got beat. Seems you definitely have it out for Eubank

LHW Toney was not as good as smw Toney, for obvious reasons

Dave Tiberi was on the same level as Collins who beat Eubank twice.

Griffin would of beat Eubank, especially with Futch in his corner

Toney won the Thadzi fight and got robbed. Just like Thornton "the punching postman" beat Eubank and got robbed or how about club fighter Schommer who also beat Eubank and got robbed.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Anyways, I see similarities between Eubank and Griffin - and while Toney's fights with Griffin could have gone either way, over 24 rounds he struggled with him no doubt. Griffin was no better than Eubank, and I see Toney struggling here as well.

Griffin while he was with Futch was better than Eubank, which is why he had two wins over Toney(HOFer) and a win over prime Jones(ATG). No win of Eubank's can compare to those.

Griffin was not that similar to Eubank either.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

By the way, this fight would be at SMW - not MW where Toney was at his best

?????????
Eubank was at his best at mw, he slipped a number of steps when he moved to smw, which is why he struggled with most of his opponents no matter how mediocre they were.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

Eubank couldn't take body punches. It's the reason he was hitting and holding against Benn II, so Benn couldn't go to the body. It also explains why he turned down the McCallum fight.

Regardless, Eubank was extremely tough, and the only time he didn't finish a fight was when he was past his best, fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight. Toney isn't stopping Eubank, simple as that.

That was due to Tyson being so predictable and telegraphing his left hooks.

Regardless, my point stands. Griffin was able to have success counter-punching against Roy Jones, and Jones is probably the fastest LHW of all time, and he was as unpredictable as they come. Hopkins had success counter-punching Joe Calzaghe who was also unpredictable.

To be a counter puncher you have to wait for opponent to commit to a punch then exploit the opening his offense provides. Eubank wasn't even able to do that consistently against a plodder like Collins

ok thanks for the tip coach - I'll bare it in mind when I'm sparring tomorrow

Who did Eubank fight who was as fast as Toney?
He had his hands full with slow Collins

Nigel Benn

I said that Eubank's footwork was sloppy and I gave fights which highlighted that fact: Collins and Calzaghe.

He squared himself up and got dropped by a pillow fisted Collins. He also was lunging and off balance when he got dropped by Calzaghe.

Neither of those guys are similar to Toney in any way

LHW Toney was not as good as smw Toney, for obvious reasons

Why? LHW Toney didn't have to cut excessive amounts of weight to make 168

Dave Tiberi was on the same level as Collins who beat Eubank twice.

you think Dave Tiberi would be able to give Mike Mccallum a good hard fight like Collins did? You think Dave Tiberi could fight Reggie Johnson to an SD?

Griffin would of beat Eubank, especially with Futch in his corner

Quite possibly, but Griffin was a natural LHW, Eubank started his career at MW - There isn't much between them

Toney won the Thadzi fight and got robbed. Just like Thornton "the punching postman" beat Eubank and got robbed or how about club fighter Schommer who also beat Eubank and got robbed.

Toney didn't get robbed against Thadzi, that was a close fight that many feel Thadzi edged on work-rate. A robbery would be - Lewis-Holyfield 1, Whitaker-Chavez

Toney-Thadzi is no robbery. But regardless, Toney also has two losses to club fighters in Thadzi and Tiberi - both guys were prone to off nights. For the sake of a mythical H2H match up, I'm looking at both guys on a good night

Griffin while he was with Futch was better than Eubank, which is why he had two wins over Toney(HOFer) and a win over prime Jones(ATG). No win of Eubank's can compare to those.

Grffin was not that similar to Eubank either.

How much stock do you put in Griffin's win over Jones? Most feel he got fortunate under the circumstances and whilst I had Griffin winning at that point, it looked like Jones was going to stop him before long. Fighters have gotten away with worse than what Roy got DQ'd for.

?????????
Eubank was at his best at mw, he slipped a number of steps when he moved to smw, which is why he struggled with most of his opponents no matter how mediocre they were.

??^%&@**??

In the video above Toney is calling out Eubank when they're both at SMW!

??$%^@:**???

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Regardless, Eubank was extremely tough, and the only time he didn't finish a fight was when he was past his best, fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight. Toney isn't stopping Eubank, simple as that.

I never said he would. You are the one you claimed that Toney couldn't hurt Eubank

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Regardless, my point stands.

How? By using a case of Evander fighting a predictable Tyson who was throwing single shots at a time?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Griffin was able to have success counter-punching against Roy Jones, and Jones is probably the fastest LHW of all time, and he was as unpredictable as they come.

You obviously have not watched that fight

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Hopkins had success counter-punching Joe Calzaghe who was also unpredictable.

Maybe I was watching another fight where Hopkins was throwing right hand LEADS then clinching

Originally Posted by knockout artist

ok thanks for the tip coach - I'll bare it in mind when I'm sparring tomorrow

I find it strange when people go out of their way to claim certain things. I have never felt any need to highlight my martial arts background here. In fact I would say it was quite irrelevant. Either what I say makes sense or it does not

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Nigel Benn

Hell no
Benn tended to load up on his punches

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Neither of those guys

What are you talking about? I named the Collins and Calzaghe fights as examples where Eubank's footwork was sloppy.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Why? LHW Toney didn't have to cut excessive amounts of weight to make 168

Do you think walking into the ring carrying excess fat hinders you or helps you?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

you think Dave Tiberi would be able to give Mike Mccallum a good hard fight like Collins did?

McCallum was not a big hitter at mw. I'm sure quite a few tough limited natural mw's would of been able to go the distance with him. Doesn't mean they were anywhere near as good as him.

I'm sure Tiberi could of gone the distance with McCallum. If he could take Toney's punches then he could take Mccallum's

Originally Posted by knockout artist

You think Dave Tiberi could fight Reggie Johnson to an SD?

Please stop boxrecing
Reggie Johnson clearly won that fight. You would now that if you actually watched it

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Quite possibly, but Griffin was a natural LHW, Eubank started his career at MW - There isn't much between them

Griffin would of out-boxed him.
The fact that they made their pro debuts at different weight classes is irrelevant here, especially with Griffin being such a small lhw.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney didn't get robbed against Thadzi, that was a close fight that many feel Thadzi edged on work-rate.

The only people I have ever come across who claim that tend to be Toney haters.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney-Thadzi is no robbery. But regardless, Toney also has two losses to club fighters in Thadzi and Tiberi - both guys were prone to off nights. For the sake of a mythical H2H match up, I'm looking at both guys on their best nights

You are the one who brought up Toney's losses to Thadzi and Tiberi

Dave Tiberi was not a club fighter either. A club fighter would be someone like Dan Schommer

Originally Posted by knockout artist

How much stock do you put in Griffin's win over Jones?

A solid win for Griffin. Jones deserved to get dqed

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Most feel he got fortunate under the circumstances and whilst I had Griffin winning at that point, it looked like Jones was going to stop him before long. Fighters have gotten away with worse than what Roy got DQ'd for.

Maybe and maybe not.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

??^%&@**??

In the video above Toney is calling out Eubank when they're both at SMW!

??$%^@:**???

Here we go again
your post

Originally Posted by knockout artist

By the way, this fight would be at SMW - not MW where Toney was at his best

Eubank was at his best at mw as well

Eubank was done as a world class fighter after the Watson I fight. He refused to train properly and by the time of the Schommer fight he was only training one week before fights. It's the reason he struggled with almost everyone at smw

Compare their performances against Thornton. Toney toyed with Thornton and carried him to the end of the fight. Eubank struggled and should of lost that fight

[general zod]

Originally Posted by HEADBANGER

Thats the bottom line here. James Toneys 10 fight consecutive run whilst 168 champion is the worst consecutive run any reigning champion has ever faced in the modern day history of the sport

Only 4-5 of those fights were at 168 the rest where nothing more than keep busy fights.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

I never said he would. You are the one you claimed that Toney couldn't hurt Eubank

He wouldn't hurt Eubank

How? By using a case of Evander fighting a predictable Tyson who was throwing single shots at a time?

Strawman argument

You said you need a speed advantage to counter, I said you didn't with an example, now you're backpeddling

You obviously have not watched that fight

Good one

Maybe I was watching another fight where Hopkins was throwing right hand LEADS then clinching

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=754845&t=o GIFSoup[/quote]



You obviously have not watched that fight

I find it strange when people go out of their way to claim certain things. I have never felt any need to highlight my martial arts background here. In fact I would say it was quite irrelevant. Either what I say makes sense or it does not

What's your martial arts background? Not a wind up, I'm interested, I used to do a little bit of martial arts years ago,

Hell no
Benn tended to load up on his punches

You think Toney was faster than Benn??

What are you talking about? I named the Collins and Calzaghe fights as examples where Eubank's footwork was sloppy.

How is that relevant? Toney is not similar to Collins or Calzaghe at all

Do you think walking into the ring carrying excess fat hinders you or helps you?

Toney carried excess fat as a SMW, at LHW he didn't have to cut that extra 7 pounds

McCallum was not a big hitter at mw. I'm sure quite a few tough limited natural mw's would of been able to go the distance with him. Doesn't mean they were anywhere near as good as him.

I'm sure Tiberi could of gone the distance with McCallum. If he could take Toney's punches then he could take Mccallum's

Collins pushed Mccallum and gave him a hard fight.

Please stop boxrecingReggie Johnson clearly won that fight. You would now that if you actually watched it

zzz.... I never said Collins won, I said it was a close fight, which it was. You know it was a close fight, so why be disingenuous?

Griffin would of out-boxed him.
The fact that they made their pro debuts at different weight classes is irrelevant here, especially with Griffin being such a small lhw.

Griffin's prime was at LHW, Eubank's between MW-SMW. If they were the same size, I'd say it's a close fight.

The only people I have ever come across who claim that tend to be Toney haters.

Like the judges? Perhaps the commentators who scored it to Thadzi, or several fans on boxing boards who also scored it to Thadzi. Google it and look around, don't get upset and defensive and accuse everyone of being a Toney hater

You are the one who brought up Toney's losses to Thadzi and Tiberi

Dave Tiberi was not a club fighter either. A club fighter would be someone like Dan Schommer

My bad, tell me more about the great Dave Tiberi please

A solid win for Griffin. Jones deserved to get dqed

Maybe and maybe not.

Here we go again
your post

Eubank was at his best at mw as well

Are you blind? Toney called Eubank out when they were at SMW - watch the video in the OP. IF they were to fight, it would have been at SMW.

Eubank was done as a world class fighter after the Watson I fight. He refused to train properly and by the time of the Schommer fight he was only training one week before fights. It's the reason he struggled with almost everyone at smw

Compare their performances against Thornton. Toney toyed with Thornton and carried him to the end of the fight. Eubank struggled and should of lost that fight

Triangle theory?

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

He's done lot's of them that are all great. I'm sure he'll oblige you when he has time.

I haven't watched any Lewis fights is a while, So I will have to take a rain check on that

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

He wouldn't hurt Eubank

Yes, he would.
Eubank obviously knew McCallum's punches would mess him up' which is why he turned that fight down. Toney hit much harder than McCallum.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Strawman argument

You said you need a speed advantage to counter, I said you didn't with an example, now you're backpeddling

Which punches was Holyfield countering?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Good one

Which punches of Jones was Griffin countering?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=754845&t=o GIFSoup

You class that as counter punching

Originally Posted by knockout artist

What's your martial arts background? Not a wind up, I'm interested, I used to do a little bit of martial arts years ago,

Like I said before its irrelevant.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

You think Toney was faster than Benn??

Of course he was
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

How is that relevant? Toney is not similar to Collins or Calzaghe at all

Does he have to be?
Look at Eubank's footwork in those fights. Look how he is out of position and squared up, so he gets dropped by a right hook from a light hitting opponent.
Another example would be that "kung fu kick" he did during Benn II

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney carried excess fat as a SMW, at LHW he didn't have to cut that extra 7 pounds

During which fights?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Collins pushed Mccallum and gave him a hard fight.

How?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

zzz.... I never said Collins won, I said it was a close fight, which it was. You know it was a close fight, so why be disingenuous?

Johnson won by at least 2 points. It was competitive at parts, but Johnson was the much better fighter.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Griffin's prime was at LHW, Eubank's between MW-SMW. If they were the same size, I'd say it's a close fight.

What are you talking about? Eubank could of easily moved up to lhw.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Like the judges? Perhaps the commentators who scored it to Thadzi, or several fans on boxing boards who also scored it to Thadzi. Google it and look around, don't get upset and defensive and accuse everyone of being a Toney hater

The judges and the commentators also scored Pac-Jmm III for Pacquaio do you agree with that?

Why don't you post up your scorecard or are you just going from what others are saying?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

My bad, tell me more about the great Dave Tiberi please

I never said he was great.
I just pointed out that he was not a club fighter. He was a ordinary FULL TIME fighter who had worked his way up to the top of the ibf rankings to get a title shot.

Schommer on the other side had, had only 2 fights in the previous three years before fighting Eubank an worked full time in a office job.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Are you blind? Toney called Eubank out when they were at SMW - watch the video in the OP. IF they were to fight, it would have been at SMW.

Your post

Originally Posted by knockout artist

By the way, this fight would be at SMW - not MW where Toney was at his best

Is this not your post?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Triangle theory?

How on earth was I using triangle theory? Toney toyed with the sort of fighters who Eubank struggled with. Malinga? Schommer? Close? Thornton? Collins? Who on earth did Collins beat outside of Eubank?

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

Yes, he would.
Eubank obviously knew McCallum's punches would mess him up' which is why he turned that fight down. Toney hit much harder than McCallum.

We'll agree to disagree here

Which punches was Holyfield countering?

Which punches of Jones was Griffin countering?

You said it yourself, Holyfield could predict when Tyson would launch his left hook as he loaded it up.

As for Jones-Griffin - it's been a while since I've watched it, unfortunately I don't possess a photographic memory

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhPMQo8k1gg[/ame]

Have a watch through that and see Griffin landing counters especially in the exchanges

You class that as counter punching

I would consider the right hand that Hopkins lands at the end there as a counter punch. He landed other good shots like that

Like I said before its irrelevant.

Why? We're on a boxing and MMA forum. I always enjoy reading people's stories and experiences on here, boxing or martial arts. Nothing wrong with sharing them

Of course he was
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Toney is lightning fast there to be fair, though I still consider Benn quicker, especially with his feet

Does he have to be?
Look at Eubank's footwork in those fights. Look how he is out of position and squared up, so he gets dropped by a right hook from a light hitting opponent.
Another example would be that "kung fu kick" he did during Benn II

Depends on how he'd approach a fight against Toney. For starters, Toney wouldn't bring the pressure that Benn did, and he'd be wary of his counter punching, as opposed to Collins and Calzaghe who weren't regarded as counter punchers (though Calzaghe developed that skill later in his career).

During which fights?

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images...jpg?1308601711


Toney as a SMW from the fight with Roy - clearly carrying excess fat

How?

Mccallum won the first 5 rounds easy, as Collins was getting picked off with ease. When Collins became aggressive and a little reckless, he pressured Mike and won rounds

Johnson won by at least 2 points. It was competitive at parts, but Johnson was the much better fighter.

I agree Johnson was better, but Collins gave him a hard fight, it was close certainly to an extent. You said Tiberi was the same level as Collins, I disagree

What are you talking about? Eubank could of easily moved up to lhw.

True, but starting at MW and then ending up at LHW isn't the same as starting at LHW

The judges and the commentators also scored Pac-Jmm III for Pacquaio do you agree with that?

That was a close fight, but not a good example. It's pretty widely accepted that JMM won, I had him winning 115-113 when I watched it, though I've seen people's scorecards that have JMM winning 117-111, a few had it for Pac.

Toney-Thadzi was a close fight, many people have it for Thadzi, whereas few have it for Pac, many have it for Thadzi, it wasn't a robbery. At the end of the day, Toney should deal with a guy like Thadzi easy, he was levels above him.

Why don't you post up your scorecard or are you just going from what others are saying?

Why would I have a Toney-Thadzi scorecard with me now. For recent fights I keep them on my iphone now, but before then I would write them on paper and I don't have them on me

At the end of the day, it was a close fight, certainly not a robbery and not many argue that Thadzi didn't deserve it. It is what it is.

I never said he was great.
I just pointed out that he was not a club fighter. He was a ordinary FULL TIME fighter who had worked his way up to the top of the ibf rankings to get a title shot.

At the end of the day, Toney had no business losing to him. It would be the equivalent of Mayweather losing to someone like Matthew Hatton

Schommer on the other side had, had only 2 fights in the previous three years before fighting Eubank an worked full time in a office job.

True, Eubank-Schommer was embarrassing, Eubank had no business losing to him either.

Your post

Is this not your post?

??

Toney called Eubank out when they were at SMW, not MW. They would have fought at SMW. Not really sure how much clearer I can make that for you?

How on earth was I using triangle theory? Toney toyed with the sort of fighters who Eubank struggled with. Malinga? Schommer? Close? Thornton? Collins? Who on earth did Collins beat outside of Eubank?

Styles make fights

I know Eubank struggled with Collins, but Collins brought non stop pressure - Toney was more skilled and didn't fight anything like that - which is what would suit Eubank more

[EuroBot]

Why is MMA, the equivalent of human cockfighting/pitbull fighting, being brought up in this thread?

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

We'll agree to disagree here

Watson II:
His body shots were hurting Eubank, which is why Eubank became over protective of his body during the later rounds

Watson dropped him during the 11th with a right hook

Benn I:
Hurt Eubank with body shots

Refused to fight McCallum because he knew McCallum would focus on his body

Toney hurts Eubank with body shots, whether you like it or not.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

You said it yourself, Holyfield could predict when Tyson would launch his left hook as he loaded it up.

Point 1: I asked you about the fight and you quote my post? You have not watched that fight. Feel free to prove me wrong by describing Evander's strategy during that fight

Point 2: There is no difference between the hand speed of Tyson and Holyfield so it was a bad example to start with

Originally Posted by knockout artist

As for Jones-Griffin - it's been a while since I've watched it, unfortunately I don't possess a photographic memory

Have a watch through that and see Griffin landing counters especially in the exchanges

So you quote a fight you don't even remember?
That automatically disqualifies the Jones-Griffin I fight seeing as how you dont even remember what happened during it

Originally Posted by knockout artist

I would consider the right hand that Hopkins lands at the end there as a counter punch. He landed other good shots like that

Well you considered it wrong.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney is lightning fast there to be fair, though I still consider Benn quicker, especially with his feet

So I will say it again. Benn tended to load up on his shots which made them harder but SLOWER.

Post up a clip which shows Benn throwing a fast combination.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

Watson II:
His body shots were hurting Eubank, which is why Eubank became over protective of his body during the later rounds

Watson dropped him during the 11th with a right hook

Benn I:
Hurt Eubank with body shots

Refused to fight McCallum because he knew McCallum would focus on his body

Toney hurts Eubank with body shots, whether you like it or not.

Eubank was never stopped on body shots - Toney isn't stopping Eubank, deal with it.

]Point 1:[/b] I asked you about the fight and you quote my post? You have not watched that fight. Feel free to prove me wrong by describing Evander's strategy during that fight

zzz...

Point 2: There is no difference between the hand speed of Tyson and Holyfield so it was a bad example to start with

Priceless!

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Holyfield lands a cracking counter and puts Tyson down.

Holyfield did not have faster hands. He had a great strategy of timing Tyson on the way in with right hands and then tieing up, and countering Tyson's left hooks throughout the fight.

So you quote a fight you don't even remember?
That automatically disqualifies the Jones-Griffin I fight seeing as how you dont even remember what happened during it

I posted up a video that shows Griffin landing counter punches.

I don't remember every minute of the fight, do you? What a silly thing to say

FightHype.com takes you back in time to revisit all the action of fights gone by. In this unique series, get a firsthand look at what it's like to experience the physical, mental and emotional ups and downs of a professional prizefight. Find out what the fighters were going through before, during and after the fights as they relive some of the highlights of their most memorable bouts. On March 21, 1997, Montell Griffin became the first man to put a blemish on the record of Roy Jones Jr. when the previously undefeated fighter landed two shots that would ultimately get him disqualified. Check out how Montell Griffin remembers what turned out to be one of the most definitive moments of his career.

At the time, we knew Roy didn't like pressure, so we wanted to bring it right back to him. He wanted to fight when he wanted to fight, and you want to fight when he don't want to fight, so we worked on putting pressure on him and just counter-punching him and the main thing was just keep my hands up

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Further to that, watch the video I posted. Don't be disingenuous.

Well you considered it wrong.

No, you considered it wrong

So I will say it again. Benn tended to load up on his shots which made them harder but SLOWER.

Post up a clip which shows Benn throwing a fast combination.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVgkCN_1aE[/ame]


For instance, see the uppercut and left hook on Barkley around 1:40, or go to 1:55

Benn was more agile than Toney no doubt - you're in denial because you're a James Toney fanboy - evidenced by the fact that you argue when you've clearly been proven wrong, and you take any comment about Toney on a personal level - denial, projection, distortion - textbook defence mechanisms which are on display in your posts. I bet you'll bring up something completely unrelated to this discussion in your response in an attempt to deflect away from this or defend yourself.