Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career?

liljp361 · 12-05-2012, 12:03 AM

WatchfortheHook · 12-05-2012, 12:38 AM

Yes and no.

Kelly really did give him a career altering beating that you knew Miranda would never be the same when it happened.

However, Miranda was obviously quite limited and was never going to be a great fighter.

kirk · 12-05-2012, 12:42 AM

No, even as a fan of Miranda I have to say it was simply Mirandas own ability level that kept him from the upper levels of boxing.

I dont believe the Pavlik fight, as bad as it was, kept Miranda from doing anything he would have otherwise done.

WatchfortheHook · 12-05-2012, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk

No, even as a fan of Miranda I have to say it was simply Mirandas own ability level that kept him from the upper levels of boxing.

I dont believe the Pavlik fight, as bad as it was, kept Miranda from doing anything he would have otherwise done.

You said it better than I did.

D_Andrade · 12-05-2012, 12:48 AM

Neither were the same after that fight!

Big Red · 12-05-2012, 12:51 AM

Pavlik destroyed a lot of boxers, take a look at the guys Pavlik knocked out that were never knocked out before. And then look at what they did after fighting Pavlik.

MidniteProwler · 12-05-2012, 12:54 AM

Prime Pavlik was a beast

WatchfortheHook · 12-05-2012, 01:22 AM

Come to think of it..circumstance might have hurt Miranda's chances at accomplishments more than anything else.

What if he got to Taylor before facing Pavlik? With Taylor having stamina issues at the time, combined with the fact that Taylor didn't KO anyone legitimately from 2006-2012(Nicklow stoppage was BS), it adds the possibility the Miranda would still be around late in the fight.

Vote here!:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Also, I think he really missed out on his best chance to grab a strap at 168 when he was set up to fight Robert Stieglitz but pulled out due to sickness I believe. I will eventually do a poll on that one too.

WatchfortheHook · 12-05-2012, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Red

Pavlik destroyed a lot of boxers, take a look at the guys Pavlik knocked out that were never knocked out before. And then look at what they did after fighting Pavlik.

I tend to disagree (with the exception of Zertuche). Care to elaborate on your stance?

Hermit · 12-05-2012, 01:29 AM

P2K, now that he is no longer involved with Miranda, pretty much laid it out in a posting. He never recovered from the Pavlik fight.

Big Red · 12-05-2012, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WatchfortheHook

I tend to disagree (with the exception of Zertuche). Care to elaborate on your stance?

Taylor also did very little after the fights with Pavlik. Who was previous to fighting Pavlik giving boxers like Wright and Hopkins all they could handle. Leading up to his fight with Zertuche He fought Pierre who retired after Pavlik knocked him out for some reason. Locket also retired after Pavlik beat him.

In a short time span 5 boxers were never the same after Pavlik was done with them. There are other boxers that were never stopped until they met up with Pavlik and if you look at box rec you will see this. And after the fight with Pavlik there is a drop off in their success or a plain out retirement.

motownsiu · 12-05-2012, 01:52 AM

i woulnd't say destroy but i think pavlik showed what happens usually when you bully the bully. it was suppose to be miranda pushing the pace of the fight coming foward and imposing his will not pavlik.

WatchfortheHook · 12-05-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Red

Taylor also did very little after the fights with Pavlik. Who was previous to fighting Pavlik giving boxers like Wright and Hopkins all they could handle. Leading up to his fight with Zertuche He fought Pierre who retired after Pavlik knocked him out for some reason. Locket also retired after Pavlik beat him.

In a short time span 5 boxers were never the same after Pavlik was done with them. There are other boxers that were never stopped until they met up with Pavlik and if you look at box rec you will see this. And after the fight with Pavlik there is a drop off in their success or a plain out retirement.

See, this is where I differ in opinion with Booradley on the whole Taylor thing....

After getting KTFO by Pavlik, Taylor went on to lose a close decision to Pavlik in a rematch(some think he won, I don't think he did but it was close). Then he dominated shot Jeff Lacy, and fought him aggressively. Against Froch he fought him very aggressively and was up on the scorecards before getting KTFO with 14 seconds left (possibly 14 seconds from comeback fighter of the year). When you're fighting as aggressively and as willing to pull the trigger as JT was against Froch...you're not shot or ruined. It wasn't until Abraham that JT started fighting timidly and seemed to be more focused on not gassing and seeing himself through the whole 12 rounds than winning the fight.

Now, BEFORE Pavlik, JT looked vulnerable. You can bring up Bhop and Winky but the thing is the Hopkins fights were the best fights of his career. In the eyes of many he lost to Winky. Then he proceeded to struggle quite a bit with blown up welterweights and junior middleweights. He was looking ripe for the picking in the eyes of many at the time (they just thought Miranda would be the one to do it).

As far as some of the other guys you mentioned....

Pierre HAD been KO'd before....to John Duddy (only 8 fights, tko'd in round 1) and Willie Gibbs(KO'd round 12)....that tells you all you need to know.

And just because you get stopped doesn't mean you're ruined. Zuniga suffered his first stoppage loss to Pavlik but he's still the same guy...just older.

Miranda I don't think was quite the same, but he probably wasn't going to achieve a whole lot either. His skill set was very limited but he had a huge punch....thats enough to get you by the Francisco Sierra's of the world....not the top level (usually).And it's not like his chin became utter crap (like Taylor), he only gets taken out by guys that are pretty big punchers, if you punch like Ward or Despaigne he can stand up to them. And he never really got around to fighting all that tentatively, always willing to go out on his shield.

I don't think Lockett stuck around long enough to take a "change the course of your life" beating from Pavlik (TKO'd in round 3....it obviously would have been worse had he stuck aorund for like 6 or 7 rounds). He was just a guy who worked really hard fighting at a domestic level to get a world title shot and found out he didn't belong. Some guys want to stick around for the sake of sticking around....others don't see the point in trying if they don't believe in themselves.

The only semi-relevant guy that I see the immediate for sure ruining process (Lacy-style) take place is Zertuche.

MrMagic · 12-05-2012, 02:18 AM

Pavlik bullied the bully, Miranda can't fight off the backfoot.

WatchfortheHook · 12-05-2012, 02:43 AM

Speaking of all of this, I wonder what Kelly thinks about his second best win of his career?

"Well, the media made Miranda"

It's too bad he's had questionable management moves. I don't hate the guy even though I'm not a big fan of his or anything, but I've said multiple times that he was a nightmare of a middleweight.

12-05-2012, 12:03 AM	#1
liljp361 Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,651 vCash: 1000	Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career?
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12-05-2012, 12:38 AM	#2
WatchfortheHook Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,015 vCash: 1551	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Yes and no. Kelly really did give him a career altering beating that you knew Miranda would never be the same when it happened. However, Miranda was obviously quite limited and was never going to be a great fighter.
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12-05-2012, 12:42 AM	#3
kirk ConquerorChozen1Attila* East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ill swallow my Blood before i swallow my Pride Posts: 29,619 vCash: 75	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? No, even as a fan of Miranda I have to say it was simply Mirandas own ability level that kept him from the upper levels of boxing. I dont believe the Pavlik fight, as bad as it was, kept Miranda from doing anything he would have otherwise done.
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12-05-2012, 12:48 AM	#5
D_Andrade Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Providence, Rhode Island, USA Posts: 728 vCash: 75	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Neither were the same after that fight!
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12-05-2012, 12:51 AM	#6
Big Red Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,011 vCash: 1036	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Pavlik destroyed a lot of boxers, take a look at the guys Pavlik knocked out that were never knocked out before. And then look at what they did after fighting Pavlik.
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12-05-2012, 12:54 AM	#7
MidniteProwler Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,143 vCash: 500	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Prime Pavlik was a beast
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12-05-2012, 01:22 AM	#8
WatchfortheHook Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,015 vCash: 1551	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Come to think of it..circumstance might have hurt Miranda's chances at accomplishments more than anything else. What if he got to Taylor before facing Pavlik? With Taylor having stamina issues at the time, combined with the fact that Taylor didn't KO anyone legitimately from 2006-2012(Nicklow stoppage was BS), it adds the possibility the Miranda would still be around late in the fight. Vote here!: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Also, I think he really missed out on his best chance to grab a strap at 168 when he was set up to fight Robert Stieglitz but pulled out due to sickness I believe. I will eventually do a poll on that one too.
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12-05-2012, 01:29 AM	#10
Hermit BUM East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bumfuck, Egypt Posts: 22,756 vCash: 1098	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? P2K, now that he is no longer involved with Miranda, pretty much laid it out in a posting. He never recovered from the Pavlik fight.
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12-05-2012, 01:52 AM	#12
motownsiu Champion East Side Guru Join Date: May 2009 Location: oakland, ca usa Posts: 5,118 vCash: 1000	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? i woulnd't say destroy but i think pavlik showed what happens usually when you bully the bully. it was suppose to be miranda pushing the pace of the fight coming foward and imposing his will not pavlik.
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12-05-2012, 02:18 AM	#14
MrMagic Super Six East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 24,518 vCash: 1000	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Pavlik bullied the bully, Miranda can't fight off the backfoot.
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12-05-2012, 02:43 AM	#15
WatchfortheHook Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,015 vCash: 1551	Re: Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career? Speaking of all of this, I wonder what Kelly thinks about his second best win of his career? "Well, the media made Miranda" It's too bad he's had questionable management moves. I don't hate the guy even though I'm not a big fan of his or anything, but I've said multiple times that he was a nightmare of a middleweight.
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