Did Pavlik destroy Mirandas career?

[JMP]

Pavlik put such a ridiculous beatdown on Miranda. It definitely hurt him big-time. I can't imagine his mentality and confidence ever being quite the same, despite his forever-consistent inclination to run his mouth and make bold predictions via trash-talking. Physically, it must've taken something as well.

[Big Red]

Originally Posted by WatchfortheHook

See, this is where I differ in opinion with Booradley on the whole Taylor thing....

After getting KTFO by Pavlik, Taylor went on to lose a close decision to Pavlik in a rematch(some think he won, I don't think he did but it was close). Then he dominated shot Jeff Lacy, and fought him aggressively. Against Froch he fought him very aggressively and was up on the scorecards before getting KTFO with 14 seconds left (possibly 14 seconds from comeback fighter of the year). When you're fighting as aggressively and as willing to pull the trigger as JT was against Froch...you're not shot or ruined. It wasn't until Abraham that JT started fighting timidly and seemed to be more focused on not gassing and seeing himself through the whole 12 rounds than winning the fight.

Now, BEFORE Pavlik, JT looked vulnerable. You can bring up Bhop and Winky but the thing is the Hopkins fights were the best fights of his career. In the eyes of many he lost to Winky. Then he proceeded to struggle quite a bit with blown up welterweights and junior middleweights. He was looking ripe for the picking in the eyes of many at the time (they just thought Miranda would be the one to do it).

As far as some of the other guys you mentioned....

Pierre HAD been KO'd before....to John Duddy (only 8 fights, tko'd in round 1) and Willie Gibbs(KO'd round 12)....that tells you all you need to know.

And just because you get stopped doesn't mean you're ruined. Zuniga suffered his first stoppage loss to Pavlik but he's still the same guy...just older.

Miranda I don't think was quite the same, but he probably wasn't going to achieve a whole lot either. His skill set was very limited but he had a huge punch....thats enough to get you by the Francisco Sierra's of the world....not the top level (usually).And it's not like his chin became utter crap (like Taylor), he only gets taken out by guys that are pretty big punchers, if you punch like Ward or Despaigne he can stand up to them. And he never really got around to fighting all that tentatively, always willing to go out on his shield.

I don't think Lockett stuck around long enough to take a "change the course of your life" beating from Pavlik (TKO'd in round 3....it obviously would have been worse had he stuck aorund for like 6 or 7 rounds). He was just a guy who worked really hard fighting at a domestic level to get a world title shot and found out he didn't belong. Some guys want to stick around for the sake of sticking around....others don't see the point in trying if they don't believe in themselves.

The only semi-relevant guy that I see the immediate for sure ruining process (Lacy-style) take place is Zertuche.

Being in a close fight with Winky Wright at that time is nothing short of phenomenal. And to be in a close fight with Winky Wright at that point in time ment Taylor was almost as elite as it gets imo. I actually think Wright in many ways out fought Hopkins and a case can be made that he won the fight, which I think he did. The fight with Spinks was a tough fight but Spinks was amazing also and is underrated. The second fight Taylor had with Pavlik was a closer type fight but Pavlik still gave him a good battering.

After the fights with Pavlik Taylors greatest achievement is being up in a fight late with Froch. Now maybe Pavlik did not damage Taylor but there is a noticable pattern with boxers after Pavlik puts a beat down on them. Is it just coincidence? That is possible but there seems to be a pattern of boxers not performing as well and getting knocked out more often or retireing after they fight Pavlik. Its not suprising many boxers he knocks out are out before they hit the floor.

[WatchfortheHook]

Originally Posted by Big Red

Being in a close fight with Winky Wright at that time is nothing short of phenomenal. And to be in a close fight with Winky Wright at that point in time ment Taylor was almost as elite as it gets imo. I actually think Wright in many ways out fought Hopkins and a case can be made that he won the fight, which I think he did. The fight with Spinks was a tough fight but Spinks was amazing also and is underrated. The second fight Taylor had with Pavlik was a closer type fight but Pavlik still gave him a good battering.

After the fights with Pavlik Taylors greatest achievement is being up in a fight late with Froch. Now maybe Pavlik did not damage Taylor but there is a noticable pattern with boxers after Pavlik puts a beat down on them. Is it just coincidence? That is possible but there seems to be a pattern of boxers not performing as well and getting knocked out more often or retireing after they fight Pavlik. Its not suprising many boxers he knocks out are out before they hit the floor.

But what would you consider not performing as well to be?

Miranda was only a contender....and remained a viable contender quite sometime afterwards, and remained a guy that could only knock out lower level guys..

Zuniga was a low-level gatekeeper and remains one today.

Lockett could have continued on back on the domestic level (which would have been the same level he was competing on before that joke of a mandatory), but like I said, he probably just didn't want to.

Rubio seems to be doing ok, upper level gatekeeper.

Onto Taylor....Now, I didn't say Pavlik didn't damage Taylor, and time a heavy handed guy lays hands on you like that you endure some damage, I said he didn't ruin him...and really like I said Taylor was looking pretty weak and vulnerable before hand (you left out Ouma...that was NOT an impressive performance) BTW, if you're going to call Taylor as "elite as it gets at the time" if thats the case, I'm sorry he shouldn't be struggling with Spinks either.

[Big Red]

Originally Posted by WatchfortheHook

But what would you consider not performing as well to be?

Miranda was only a contender....and remained a viable contender quite sometime afterwards, and remained a guy that could only knock out lower level guys..

Zuniga was a low-level gatekeeper and remains one today.

Lockett could have continued on back on the domestic level (which would have been the same level he was competing on before that joke of a mandatory), but like I said, he probably just didn't want to.

Rubio seems to be doing ok, upper level gatekeeper.

Onto Taylor....Now, I didn't say Pavlik didn't damage Taylor, and time a heavy handed guy lays hands on you like that you endure some damage, I said he didn't ruin him...and really like I said Taylor was looking pretty weak and vulnerable before hand (you left out Ouma...that was NOT an impressive performance) BTW, if you're going to call Taylor as "elite as it gets at the time" if thats the case, I'm sorry he shouldn't be struggling with Spinks either.

Rubio is doing ok but many boxers Pavlik has fought are not. I said there is evidence if you look for it. Is it coincendence? Maybe, but there seems to be a pattern.

I have some iformation from boxrec that I will show you. You might just think its a coincedence. Here is what some boxers have done with their careers after Pavlik beats them.

- Lopez, 1-2
- Espino, retired
- locket, retired
- taylor, nothing needs to be said.
- Miranda, nothing needs to be said.
- Zertuche, 2-4
- Piere, retired
- Vincent Harris, never won another fight
- Daniel Neal, never won another fight
- Dorian Beaupierre, never won another fight
- Ross Thompson 1-6
- Carlton Holland 2-4
- Robert Baro 1-5
- Rica Cason 1-14

That is only going half way back into Pavliks career. You think its just a coincedence that boxers are not performing as well after Pavlik is finished with them now?

[motownsiu]

miranda couldn't deal with kelly when he doubled that fucking jab.

[DREAMCATCHER]

Originally Posted by liljp361

What career?

[Hermit]

Originally Posted by DREAMCATCHER

What career?

The one that has netted him enough money to be set for life? Obvious the newb doesn't follow boxing.

[MrMagic]

Originally Posted by Hermit

The one that has netted him enough money to be set for life? Obvious the newb doesn't follow boxing.

LOL, not so sure Miranda earned that kind of cake to be honest.

[EuroBot]

Honestly I just think Miranda never had the skills at the highest level. If you pushed him back, he would crumble.

Miranda a G, however.

[dbouziane]

Originally Posted by EuroBot

Miranda a G, however.

Edison Miranda is a top 15-20 p4p shit talker. Prime Miranda ran his mouth with the best of them. Right up there with Mayorga

[Hermit]

Originally Posted by MrMagic

LOL, not so sure Miranda earned that kind of cake to be honest.

Damned. Slipped a 'thread cog'. Thought this was a Pavlik thread. Still, Miranda came up from living on the streets. His money went far in Columbia. Probably why he always ballooned up so much between fights.

[Two Shakes]

Originally Posted by WatchfortheHook

See, this is where I differ in opinion with Booradley on the whole Taylor thing....

After getting KTFO by Pavlik, Taylor went on to lose a close decision to Pavlik in a rematch(some think he won, I don't think he did but it was close). Then he dominated shot Jeff Lacy, and fought him aggressively. Against Froch he fought him very aggressively and was up on the scorecards before getting KTFO with 14 seconds left (possibly 14 seconds from comeback fighter of the year). When you're fighting as aggressively and as willing to pull the trigger as JT was against Froch...you're not shot or ruined. It wasn't until Abraham that JT started fighting timidly and seemed to be more focused on not gassing and seeing himself through the whole 12 rounds than winning the fight.

Now, BEFORE Pavlik, JT looked vulnerable. You can bring up Bhop and Winky but the thing is the Hopkins fights were the best fights of his career. In the eyes of many he lost to Winky. Then he proceeded to struggle quite a bit with blown up welterweights and junior middleweights. He was looking ripe for the picking in the eyes of many at the time (they just thought Miranda would be the one to do it).

As far as some of the other guys you mentioned....

Pierre HAD been KO'd before....to John Duddy (only 8 fights, tko'd in round 1) and Willie Gibbs(KO'd round 12)....that tells you all you need to know.

And just because you get stopped doesn't mean you're ruined. Zuniga suffered his first stoppage loss to Pavlik but he's still the same guy...just older.

Miranda I don't think was quite the same, but he probably wasn't going to achieve a whole lot either. His skill set was very limited but he had a huge punch....thats enough to get you by the Francisco Sierra's of the world....not the top level (usually).And it's not like his chin became utter crap (like Taylor), he only gets taken out by guys that are pretty big punchers, if you punch like Ward or Despaigne he can stand up to them. And he never really got around to fighting all that tentatively, always willing to go out on his shield.

I don't think Lockett stuck around long enough to take a "change the course of your life" beating from Pavlik (TKO'd in round 3....it obviously would have been worse had he stuck aorund for like 6 or 7 rounds). He was just a guy who worked really hard fighting at a domestic level to get a world title shot and found out he didn't belong. Some guys want to stick around for the sake of sticking around....others don't see the point in trying if they don't believe in themselves.

The only semi-relevant guy that I see the immediate for sure ruining process (Lacy-style) take place is Zertuche.

Only thing i'd add to this,is Taylors struggle to make 160.