Wladimir Klitschko vs Lennox Lewis

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Bollox

It's odd how Vlad despite the inherent weaknesses he's displayed is these days seen as not having those weaknesses. He obviously hasn't fought the high calibre opponents recently, that bring those weaknesses to the fore. Different leagues, Vlad and Lewis

I believe in giving fighters the benefit of the doubt.

Lewis beats Wlad for stylistic and temperament reasons. When a weakness vanishes for 7 years, its more likely that it has been fixed or bandaged, and is no longer a big factor.

Fighters change. I've never met a single fighter who was the same guy he was more then a half a decade prior. Wlad's detractors would saddle him with that, and give Lewis a pass for getting coldcocked worse against McCall then Wlad was against Sanders.

Both had weaknesses, and both improved. Lewis didn't have a Brewster or a Purrity, but he had a Rahman, and Wlad has yet to lose the heavyweight title in a big, one punch knockout to a no hoper.

I think they are closer then people are giving it credit, Lewis' h2h edge or no.

Btw, yes, McCall and Sanders are on about the same level.

[Bollox]

Fair enough but I reckon we all would had a much better idea of Vlad's character as a fighter in a Sanders rematch

IMO Lewis and Vlad are a level apart with Lewis a verified and certified great. Vlad simply isn't

[MagnaNasakki]

He's also not done.

I'd agree that Lewis is simply greater. But Wlad isn't done yet, and he's earned respect as a dominant champion.

It's a shame that Manny Steward didn't get to see his phoenix finish the journey, though. He helped Oliver McCall wreck Lewis' whole future at the top, then he built the man back up into a truly great, stud heavyweight king.

He did it again, with Wlad Klitschko. We can compare Lewis and Wlad until the rooster crows, but the facts show they are mirror image in career terms. Olympic gold medalists who stumbled on the cusp of greatness, and were brought to their potential with perhaps the greatest trainer of his era.

It's a credit to Manny Steward. They are, aside from Hearns, his two greatest tricks as a trainer, and if you look at his past interviews before he died, he heaped respect on both of their abilities.

I think he'd know best, beyond any of us. He knew how badass those two are. I think it'd be a great fight, Lewis would come ready to murder somebody, and Wlad would come in the best shape of his life.

[FastHands(beeb)]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

He's also not done.

I'd agree that Lewis is simply greater. But Wlad isn't done yet, and he's earned respect as a dominant champion.

It's a shame that Manny Steward didn't get to see his phoenix finish the journey, though. He helped Oliver McCall wreck Lewis' whole future at the top, then he built the man back up into a truly great, stud heavyweight king.

He did it again, with Wlad Klitschko. We can compare Lewis and Wlad until the rooster crows, but the facts show they are mirror image in career terms. Olympic gold medalists who stumbled on the cusp of greatness, and were brought to their potential with perhaps the greatest trainer of his era.

It's a credit to Manny Steward. They are, aside from Hearns, his two greatest tricks as a trainer, and if you look at his past interviews before he died, he heaped respect on both of their abilities.

I think he'd know best, beyond any of us. He knew how badass those two are. I think it'd be a great fight, Lewis would come ready to murder somebody, and Wlad would come in the best shape of his life.

My thoughts exactly, great points made my Magna who has more close up knowledge of the subject than just about anybody on these boards.

It's a pleasure reading your work Magna

So true about Wlad not being done yet. The only way you can truly fully judge the greatness of a fighter is at the end of their career; for example Don Curry - before the Honeyghan fight considered p4p the best at the time along with MMH - after the Honeyghan fight, never viewed in the same way again.

Mind you, I don't see any Lloyd Honeyghan equivalents lurking around the corner for Wlad!

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by FastHands(beeb)

My thoughts exactly, great points made my Magna who has more close up knowledge of the subject than just about anybody on these boards.

It's a pleasure reading your work Magna

So true about Wlad not being done yet. The only way you can truly fully judge the greatness of a fighter is at the end of their career; for example Don Curry - before the Honeyghan fight considered p4p the best at the time along with MMH - after the Honeyghan fight, never viewed in the same way again.

Mind you, I don't see any Lloyd Honeyghan equivalents lurking around the corner for Wlad!

I think Wlad could go on too long, myself. Especially with his trainer unfortunately passing. He's so dominant, that he'd need a challenging fight to push him out of the sport, unless he's hurting from injuries a ton in private. Or, unless he's just really well-adjusted and has fun doing things outside his life as a boxer, I don't know that about him.

I could see Wlad's Honeyghan, or Rahman, coming about, but probably when he's nearly forty. That fighter's name just might be Pulev, if they don't rush the kid and let him grow.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

He's also not done.

I'd agree that Lewis is simply greater. But Wlad isn't done yet, and he's earned respect as a dominant champion.

It's a shame that Manny Steward didn't get to see his phoenix finish the journey, though. He helped Oliver McCall wreck Lewis' whole future at the top, then he built the man back up into a truly great, stud heavyweight king.

He did it again, with Wlad Klitschko. We can compare Lewis and Wlad until the rooster crows, but the facts show they are mirror image in career terms. Olympic gold medalists who stumbled on the cusp of greatness, and were brought to their potential with perhaps the greatest trainer of his era.

It's a credit to Manny Steward. They are, aside from Hearns, his two greatest tricks as a trainer, and if you look at his past interviews before he died, he heaped respect on both of their abilities.

I think he'd know best, beyond any of us. He knew how badass those two are. I think it'd be a great fight, Lewis would come ready to murder somebody, and Wlad would come in the best shape of his life.

I'd give the Razor Ruddock that Lewis kod, a very live shot against Wlad. Wach landed ONE decent shot and Wlad was disorientated, I don't think chins get better, techniques to stop them getting reached may, but if their vulnerable once ,they are vulnerable always, as Khan has proved. Lewis is a clear level above Wlad ,imo.
A motivated MCall may very well have taken Wlad out too, he had the chin to take his punches, and a big enough right to stop him.
I like Price against Wlad in about a year.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by mcvey

I'd give the Razor Ruddock that Lewis kod, a very live shot against Wlad. Wach landed ONE decent shot and Wlad was disorientated, I don't think chins get better, techniques to stop them getting reached may, but if their vulnerable once ,they are vulnerable always, as Khan has proved. Lewis is a clear level above Wlad ,imo.
A motivated MCall may very well have taken Wlad out too, he had the chin to take his punches, and a big enough right to stop him.
I like Price against Wlad in about a year.

He was forced back, he covered up, and he manuevered out of danger.

If he was disoriented, Lewis was reeling against quite a few guys.

I think Haye in the 12th might be a better shout if you'd like to bring him up getting buzzed, but I haven't seen him stung since Peter I.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

He was forced back, he covered up, and he manuevered out of danger.

If he was disoriented, Lewis was reeling against quite a few guys.

I think Haye in the 12th might be a better shout if you'd like to bring him up getting buzzed, but I haven't seen him stung since Peter I.

Haye pissed on his opportunity I had £20 just for interest but he settled for going the distance. Wlad has the talent his brother lacks but neither the mental toughness or the chin,imo.
Both nice guys I should think ,great ambasssadors for the sport etc, but boring and not ATG's for me.
Lewis was underwhelming on occasion too but, stylistically he is a nightmare for most every other heavy champ imo.
Lewis would have eaten Wach like a piece of cake ,apart from toughness and heart, he showed me nothing.

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Haye pissed on his opportunity I had £20 just for interest but he settled for going the distance. Wlad has the talent his brother lacks but neither the mental toughness or the chin,imo.
Both nice guys I should think ,great ambasssadors for the sport etc, but boring and not ATG's for me.
Lewis was underwhelming on occasion too but, stylistically he is a nightmare for most every other heavy champ imo.
Lewis would have eaten Wach like a piece of cake ,apart from toughness and heart, he showed me nothing.

I think i agree with most of your post.

I normally dont like to call eras weak, and to be consistent I think that Wlad deserves credit for the long term dominance he has shown. Outside of Vitali, he has cleaned this division as good as any previous champion, imo. And held the title as long as most. But, i am sure it isnt just nostalgia that says this is a weak era. In fact, not only do i think it a weak era, but i dare say i cant see the era as being in the same class as any other era.

I mean, for the first time pretty much ever, it seems like ever single challenger or top 10 heavyweight is at least 40lbs overweight. NOne of the top 10 fighters bother to fight each other, and even worse the heavyweight champion is no longer seen as the baddest man on the planet. It is bad enough that we lose our most promising "athletes" to basketball football athletics etc, but no we are even starting to lose the most promising fighters to wrestling, mma, etc.

Add to this is that a fighter like Vitali (who is the only real challenge for Wlad) has dominated this division even after peaking as a fighter and taking time off for a serious injury. It wouldnt be so bad, but a close to prime Vitali, no matter what positive signs can be put on it, was stopped by TKO by probably the worst version of Lennox Lewis to ever fight. And dont forget old versions of guys who were not that good in their own era, like Maskaev, or Rahman seem to be still good enough to beat solid contenders and earn title shots or even win alphabet titles.

And dont forget the fragile chin (and it really does seem to be fragile, as opposed to Lennox's even though Lennox was stopped twice) With all these factors, i really dont see Wlad being in the same class at Lennox, despite his excellent legacy. I think that Wlad loses head to head to most if not all alltime great fighters that precede him. He just isnt experienced enough in taking punishment, and against a great you will need to, no matter who you are. To be fair, i do expect him to cuase a few viscious upsets by KO, but they will be few and far between and often even reversed in a rematch, imo.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

I believe in giving fighters the benefit of the doubt.

Lewis beats Wlad for stylistic and temperament reasons. When a weakness vanishes for 7 years, its more likely that it has been fixed or bandaged, and is no longer a big factor.

Fighters change. I've never met a single fighter who was the same guy he was more then a half a decade prior. Wlad's detractors would saddle him with that, and give Lewis a pass for getting coldcocked worse against McCall then Wlad was against Sanders.

Both had weaknesses, and both improved. Lewis didn't have a Brewster or a Purrity, but he had a Rahman, and Wlad has yet to lose the heavyweight title in a big, one punch knockout to a no hoper.

I think they are closer then people are giving it credit, Lewis' h2h edge or no.

Btw, yes, McCall and Sanders are on about the same level.

good post and analysis

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

I think i agree with most of your post.

I normally dont like to call eras weak, and to be consistent I think that Wlad deserves credit for the long term dominance he has shown. Outside of Vitali, he has cleaned this division as good as any previous champion, imo. And held the title as long as most. But, i am sure it isnt just nostalgia that says this is a weak era. In fact, not only do i think it a weak era, but i dare say i cant see the era as being in the same class as any other era.

I mean, for the first time pretty much ever, it seems like ever single challenger or top 10 heavyweight is at least 40lbs overweight. NOne of the top 10 fighters bother to fight each other, and even worse the heavyweight champion is no longer seen as the baddest man on the planet. It is bad enough that we lose our most promising "athletes" to basketball football athletics etc, but no we are even starting to lose the most promising fighters to wrestling, mma, etc.

Add to this is that a fighter like Vitali (who is the only real challenge for Wlad) has dominated this division even after peaking as a fighter and taking time off for a serious injury. It wouldnt be so bad, but a close to prime Vitali, no matter what positive signs can be put on it, was stopped by TKO by probably the worst version of Lennox Lewis to ever fight. And dont forget old versions of guys who were not that good in their own era, like Maskaev, or Rahman seem to be still good enough to beat solid contenders and earn title shots or even win alphabet titles.

And dont forget the fragile chin (and it really does seem to be fragile, as opposed to Lennox's even though Lennox was stopped twice) With all these factors, i really dont see Wlad being in the same class at Lennox, despite his excellent legacy. I think that Wlad loses head to head to most if not all alltime great fighters that precede him. He just isnt experienced enough in taking punishment, and against a great you will need to, no matter who you are. To be fair, i do expect him to cuase a few viscious upsets by KO, but they will be few and far between and often even reversed in a rematch, imo.

I pretty much agree with all of that.

The thing with Wlad, and this has always been one of my biggest criticisms of the guy, is that he is not one to bite down and get tough when the tough gets going.
I for a long time, suspected Lewis of much the same thing, good fighter yeah, but show him genuine adversity and let's see what happens. The Mercer fight largely changed my mind about Lewis, because here was a guy who could take his best shots, and come back with his own.
Lewis had to grind out a victory there, like he never had to before. His face was swollen, his eyes nearly shut. While one could ask why he struggled so much with Mercer, the point remains that he had to dig deep to pull out the win. But he did.
Again also in the Vitali fight, Lewis had to dig deep. I don't think he expected such a tough challenge from Vitali, and he was being outboxed quite easily early in the fight. But he hung in there, and started unloading that big uppercut later in the fight. Once again, he had to dig deep.
How things would have ultimately played out is anyone's guess, but to me Lewis had stemmed the tide and created a momentum shift. He got the win, albeit somewhat fortuitously. But he did.

He showed a mental fortitude that I was strongly suspecting was absent from his makeup as a fighter. Also in other ways...facing his biggest and most dangerous challenge yet in the form of Ruddock, he blew the much-fancied Ruddock away. That was an amazing performance from a relative novice. When feeling physically threatened like he did against Grant and (I suspect) Golota, he turned tiger early and got these guys out of there. Lewis rose to the occasion.
Yet, when faced with an iron-chinned fighter like Tua, he was content to be disciplined to box and pile up points.

Wlad's dimension is excellent admittedly, but it's one dimension. He can't fight any other way.
I can understand and appreciate that it's damn difficult for an opponent to be successful against his style because he's very good from the outside and ties you up in knots on the inside. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

But what happens when that dimension no longer works? While no contender from this era has had the skills to do anything about it (and the one that did is dead and had been long retired anyway) I can't believe that someone like Lewis does not have the skills or the fortitude to compete with Wlad. Would Lewis be content to let Wlad jab & grab? Hardly.

[glover]

This fight is one that could have really happened. I wonder what would have happened if Lennox had fought Vitali's more agile brother!

This would be the fight of all fights, probably the 2 greatest boxers of all times, similary styled by probably the greatest trainer of all time, similar physical attributes also. A few differences, we know what they are, and the pros of each balanced out by that of the other. I can't think of anything that could really decide the outcome of this match on a forum, or in the facts.

The western world claim todays heavies are weak and Lennox's opponents are the strongest. The eastern world claims Wlad has the more decent opponents than Lennox. The truth is they are really quite comparable.

Unfortunately Lennox and Wlad are ultra big headed and shameless self promoters like no others and despite having to defend them against ridiculous comparisons on this site I would love nothing more than someone like Evander Holyfield or Riddick Bowe or the Rooney version of Tyson who was a good sport to step up/have stepped up and whip(ed) them. But unfortunately is panning out I can only declare they are the Greatest of All Time!

50/50!

[DDDUUDDDEE]

Originally Posted by tezel8764

For Real, This is what Lennox will do to Wlad:

the look on Golota's face after he's been knocked down. He's like "fuck this shit".

[dyna]

Originally Posted by DDDUUDDDEE

the look on Golota's face after he's been knocked down. He's like "fuck this shit".

More like "shit now I know why Bowe threw it in the trashcan"

[DDDUUDDDEE]

Originally Posted by dyna

More like "shit now I know why Bowe threw it in the trashcan"