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Old 12-05-2012, 05:17 PM   #46
Montero
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by Momus View Post
Holmes was 38, and while well past his prime still went on to beat Mercer and extend Holyfield and McCall.
My bad on not remembering the exact age - I just know he was old as ****, out of shape, and had not fought for two years. Yes he did go on to outbox Mercer and McCall, but he was much more active at that point, in better shape and actually trying to win. He's publicly admitted numerous times that against Tyson he was only there for a payday.


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Spinks in the latter stages of his career was a genuine (albeit small) heavyweight. As a heavy he was very competitive against Holmes, and handled Cooney without too much trouble.
Sounds kinda like Chris Byrd, no?


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Originally Posted by Momus View Post
Tyson's resume isn't amazing by any stretch, but let's not go overboard in discrediting his better wins.
Not trying to discredit them at all. Tyson is a well deserved HOF'er. But he does get overrated by many; he's not a top ten HW ATG.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:18 PM   #47
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

Wlad has covered up his real weaknesses through training and adopting a new style/approach. It doesn't completely rid him of that weakness, it only protects it. Effectively I might add. His chin is suspect, he panics under pressure, and his ability to do anything inside beyond holding is a worry. That is a character flaw, not really a technical one. There have been guys in the recent and not so recent past who would have gotten past his rather simplistic style (yes, it's effective) and in range to exploit his weaknesses. Exploit enough to win? Not all, but definitely some. It's hard to keep in perspective when he's dominating, but look at the men he's dominating and compare them to champs and top contenders in the past. No comparison really. Any unbiased eye can see that. He stacks up well h2h, but does lose a few.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:53 PM   #48
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by Porgeous Porge View Post
i saw the Ring issue of Klitscho vs the greats and it was like what if this guy lands on Wlad or this guy lands on Wlad

how bout if Wlad lands on these guys, they all go back to the supposed glass jaw of Wlad but ignore that a lot of the classic guys have been stopped and ignore Wlad has all kinds of fire power

the articles like what if Foreman hits Wlad, well what if Wlad hits foreman

my opinion on Wlad is basically that at his size and with his athleticism and power is a threat to anybody who ever fought in the heavyweight ranks

does this mean that he beats everyone, no, these are big heavyweights they can all KO each other with one shot or change a fight with one punch

I think Wlad holds enough advantages where he is a live dog or even 50/50 or better with the majority of champs in history

does this mean he couldnt lose to someone no

for me he would be really in danger vs a select few and the guys i wouldnt pick im to beat with total confidence would be as follows

Lennox Lewis- i see this as a pretty close match up but Lewis to me appears more versatile offensively and more capable of going to war

Tyson- The guy on his greatest days was a machine, power, speed, explosiveness, grit, attitude defense etc...Guy is a lock over many for h2h comparison, i dont think Wlad definitely wins here but i also dont think he definitely loses

Holmes- I would be willing to bet Wlad would win but Holmes is a great and savvy fighter

Ali- Depending on which title reign you use Ali was just a master of his craft even when past his best days. for me he is difficult to pick against

Louis- athletically gifted and has wins over large heavyweights, great technique, not sure if he could beat Wlad but it would be interesting
I agree with much of what you have said, very reasonable post. But Louis? Louis would be slaughtered. It would be like a man against a boy.

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Old 12-05-2012, 05:59 PM   #49
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

Louis has beaten bigger and heavier men than Wlad.

Louis punches Vladdys final ticket. No need to even go there.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by dinovelvet View Post
Louis has beaten bigger and heavier men than Wlad.

Louis punches Vladdys final ticket. No need to even go there.
Abe Simon, Buddy Baer and Carnera?

Bigger and heavier don't mean much...gotta have the skill behind it, which Wlad does.

Most of JL's opponents weight started with a "1", not a "2".

We are talking about 60-years of sports evolution. 60-years!
Could the NBA teams of 60-years ago compete against the best today?
Could the track stars of 60-years ago compete against the best today?
No and No.

Wladimir is just too big, too strong, and most importantly too talented.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:46 PM   #51
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by Montero View Post
Tyson's best wins:

1. Tony Tucker
2. Larry Holmes (40 years old, coming off 2 year layoff)
3. Michael Spinks (former super middleweight coming off 1 year layoff)
4. Tony Tubbs
5. Trevor Berbick

The only one that's comparable to Wladimir Klitschko is Tony Tucker (6'5", 240's). Tyson fought him in his prime and won a clear decision, but Tucker is not on Wlad's level. It's amazing to me how badly some people overrate Tyson and underrate Klitschko.
Yet that's still a better level of opposition than Wlad has beaten.

Who was Wlad's best win? Byrd, who while good had the wrong style to ever beat Wlad and can't compare to even a 38 year old Holmes or Spinks. Or perhaps Peter who was wildly over rated and would have lost to Tucker and Holmes and even Spinks.

Yes Wlad does get under rated in H2H matchups, too many people seeing the losses to Purrity, Sanders and Brewster and thinking that was anything remotely like prime Wlad now. But against most of the greats he'll need more than his jab and grab tactics to come out on top.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by BoxingDomain View Post
Abe Simon, Buddy Baer and Carnera?

Bigger and heavier don't mean much...gotta have the skill behind it, which Wlad does.

Most of JL's opponents weight started with a "1", not a "2".

We are talking about 60-years of sports evolution. 60-years!
Could the NBA teams of 60-years ago compete against the best today?
Could the track stars of 60-years ago compete against the best today?
No and No.

Wladimir is just too big, too strong, and most importantly too talented.
Depends on what perspective you take.....If you take stars from the past, warped them to this time and gave them all the available "advancements" todays athletes have at their disposal, the greats would still be greats. Talent is timeless. Hockey players used to have skates that were like wearing a brick compared to today, used wooden sticks, skated on shitty ice....you tell me Bobby Orr wouldn't be a stud today with todays stuff? Of course he would. Would Mickey Mantle be a stud today with smaller parks, a tighter wound ball and advanced training, nutrition and physio? Damn right he would. Would Ali benefit from all these advancements in training, nutrition, medical treatment, pharmaceuticals? He'd still be damn great, maybe greater. Human beings haven't evolved that much in 60 years. Sports science, nutrition, a deeper pool of talent to draw from, and investment in the athletes? Yes.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:08 PM   #53
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

1986-1989 Tyson has never seen a fighter like 2006-2012 Wlad Klitschko. And viceversa.

Tough call.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:27 PM   #54
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

I feel badly for Volo. Because I know how brutally Adamek is going to knock him out.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:50 PM   #55
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

I don't like Wlad's chances against Tyson and Lewis, but I'd favor him against everyone else. Even Ali.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:55 PM   #56
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

I think he's rated just fine, he suffered a brutal ko loss to the only dangerous come forward fighter he ever faced.

Tyson would brutally murder him
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:03 PM   #57
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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I'd hardly call him a Mike Tyson.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:15 PM   #58
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
For some reason, people love to still bring up what happened pre 2005 about Wlad, as if Wlad was the same fighter then that he is today


Tyson knocking out Wlad in 1 round?

You guys talk about Wlad's flaws, what about Tyson's flaws? Tyson had trouble with tall, powerful boxers, with a good jab. Wlad could really beat up, frustrate, outsmart tyson on the outside all night long.
Tyson had zero trouble with tall boxers. Zero. He KO'd 2 guys who were 6'6. KO'd one guy who was 6'5. Out boxed the huge Tony Tucker winning every round but maybe one. Tyson lost to Douglas in his prime. That's it.

Wlad can't brawl,can't fight on the inside,has very bad punch resistance and is very cautious. Tyson would KO any Wlad inside 4 rounds.

Sloppy slow Wach hit Wlad 3 times and Wlad looked shot by the end of the fight.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:18 PM   #59
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
I don't like Wlad's chances against Tyson and Lewis, but I'd favor him against everyone else. Even Ali.
Foreman stops Wlad in 3-4.

Ali? Come on! Ali is gonna beat Wlad from pillar to post and win by late TKO.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:22 PM   #60
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Default Re: Wlad gets severely underrated in H2H matchups

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Originally Posted by Asterion View Post
1986-1989 Tyson has never seen a fighter like 2006-2012 Wlad Klitschko. And viceversa.

Tough call.
Tony Tucker was 6'5" and was a really good fighter in his prime.
Tyson beat Prime Tucker every round. And Prime Tucker was a strong puncher with a good chin.
If Tucker was around now he'd be undisputed HW champion.
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