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Old 12-06-2012, 01:11 AM   #1
Balder
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Default Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

Most people do not realize Duran was winning that fight after the 12 round mark.

It is simply unbelievable that a Lightwieght past his best gave one of the greatest Middleweights of all time the fight of his life for his title. Duran would have won it had the fight ended after the 12 th round.

Duran in his Mid to late 40's also BEAT ( even though not awarded the wins)
Camacho and Panzianza. World tilte holders and great fighters themselves.

For those that witnessed and seen these fights, It cemented his legacy as one of the top 10 greatest fighters of all time.


If he had been awarded the wins against Camacho and Panzienza as he should have been, and won against Hagler ( real close) Could he be considered the top Lb for Lb fighter of all time?

Thoughts?
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

The only thing 'real close' about the Hagler fight is that it was real close to being one of the biggest robberies of all time.

Duran's post-Leonard 1 career is pretty forgettable for the most part.

His consistency and dominance at lighteweight is the meat and potatoes of his career.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

Yeah...fact of the matter is that fight wasn't close.


But what Duran was able to do against Hagler does assist his legacy.

The Macho and Paz fights are essentially meaningless...Even if he had those I'd consider them below the Mamby win.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

I do think Durans loss performance against Hagler is greater than Leonards win. ( I think Hagler won anyway)

Perhaps it is just me, But seeing Duran way above his natural weight fighting into his 40's against Camacho/Panzienza and ( I think Winning agaisnt them) Could be used to justify his atg rankings ( my top 5)

I cant think of any fighter who had so much success fighting at that late an age.

Besides Archie Moore perhaps. Even Archie did not have to jump so many weight classes though.

Camacho and Panzienza were at least a decade younger and held titles. I dont hold those wins ( not by the books) in that low a regard as to think them meaningless.

Thats of course if you agree Duran won the fights.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

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Originally Posted by Balder View Post
I do think Durans loss performance against Hagler is greater than Leonards win. ( I think Hagler won anyway)

Perhaps it is just me, But seeing Duran way above his natural weight fighting into his 40's against Camacho/Panzienza and ( I think Winning agaisnt them) Could be used to justify his atg rankings ( my top 5)

I cant think of any fighter who had so much success fighting at that late an age.

Besides Archie Moore perhaps. Even Archie did not have to jump so many weight classes though.

Camacho and Panzienza were at least a decade younger and held titles. I dont hold those wins ( not by the books) in that low a regard as to think them meaningless.

Thats of course if you agree Duran won the fights.
I cannot see how a loss is greater than the win Ray Leonard had.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:25 AM   #6
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

Fair enough they were younger but they held cereal box trinkets though mate.

Duran fought Paz in his early 40's.

Malinga, Nard, Foreman and I think Virgil Hill won fair dinkum titles at the same age or older.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

About a 5 year difference if my memory holds correct betwen the Duran and Leonard fights.

Hagler was at his peak againt a lighter weight and older opponent in Duran, against Leonard hagler was clearly past his prime. And I think Hagler won that fight anyway.

Durans fight to me showed how much greater overall he is vs Leonard. I also think he beat Camacho and Leonard was destroyed by Camacho.

To a point I am rating Durans losses as indications of his greateness and I admit that is an issue. But again, I think he won against Camacho and Paz, and fought a much better Hagler than Leonard, and gave Hagler hell in the process.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

Yes, there are some fighters that won trinket belts at older ages.

But none of them had to jump several weight classes to accomplish it.

I think Duran was even older than many of the ones you mentioned and was fighting far above his weight.

Great points though, I wonder whom the oldest man was that ever won a title 3-4 weight classes above his first title wieght? Duran might have the record there. ( Barkley)

????
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

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About a 5 year difference if my memory holds correct betwen the Duran and Leonard fights.

Hagler was at his peak againt a lighter weight and older opponent in Duran, against Leonard hagler was clearly past his prime. And I think Hagler won that fight anyway.

Durans fight to me showed how much greater overall he is vs Leonard. I also think he beat Camacho and Leonard was destroyed by Camacho.

To a point I am rating Durans losses as indications of his greateness and I admit that is an issue. But again, I think he won against Camacho and Paz, and fought a much better Hagler than Leonard, and gave Hagler hell in the process.
The greatest fighters Leonard and Duran fought were Hearns,Benitez,Hagler each other. So against the elite greats Leonard record vs. them was 5-1-1 (3) and Duran was 1-5 (0) That shows a greater fighter? Those were the best guys each of them fought in their career. Hearns vs. the elites was 2-2-1 (1) and Hagler was 2-1 (1) and Benitez was 1-2 (0) So Duran did worse h2h against the top guys he is associated with Hagler,Hearns,Leonard,Benitez than any of them. Now look at his lightweight reign it was good. Very good. Esteban and Buchanan. Marcel. People will even try and say Dejesus was better than Benitez.. But as far as Roberto's lightweight reign-no Arguello, even though people will mention that Marcel beat Arguello. Fact is Marcel was not Arguello, and a win over Arguello at lightweight would have been a great win. or a win against Pryor in 1980 then moving up and fighting Ray. Even though I think had Roberto beaten Pryor in 1980, he would have then fought Ray in 1981, and by that point Ray would have been his experienced self and outboxed Duran as easily as he did in the rematch.

The difference between Duran and Leonard fights with Hagler was 3 years 5 months. The Hearns fight with Hagler was only 1 year 5 months after Duran. Not as long after as people think. The thing about losing to Hagler for Duran and Leonard beating Hagler obviously Leonard has a win and Duran does not. A win is always a win, and if you give Duran credit for the Hagler win you have to say he was fighting pretty well at the time like I said, which shows by his win over Moore and winning the 154 pound title. Which then makes legitimate the win over Duran by Hearns, which was a unification of the 154 pound title in mid 1984.

I don't know much about the Camacho and Pazienza fights except that everyone involved was over the hill at that point. I saw the fights but they were mostly marketable fights by name. Duran did not fight the prime Hector or Vinny and they did not fight a championship quality Duran. So it is hard to make any assumptions on those fights in the 1990s. The last championship skills shown by Duran was in 1989 when he beat Barkley. After that in 1991 he lost to Pat Lawlor (I know he avenged that loss later), but he went down fast after that. I give him credit for sticking around until 2001 and actually showing how he could carry 168 and had a big right hand as he always did.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:50 AM   #10
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Default Re: Duran- Hagler / Camacho/ Panzienza. ATG ranking Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balder View Post
Most people do not realize Duran was winning that fight after the 12 round mark.

It is simply unbelievable that a Lightwieght past his best gave one of the greatest Middleweights of all time the fight of his life for his title. Duran would have won it had the fight ended after the 12 th round.

Thoughts?
I am a big Duran fan, but he was not winning after 12 rounds, the fight was very close, and Hagler took it to the next level in the championship rounds.

One of the main reasons the fight was so close after 12, was that Hagler's trainer Goody Petronelli put together a plan as though they were fighting primed Duran. I think the reality was, that if Hagler had gone for it earlier, he may of stopped Duran, and at least won a very comfortable decision.

As far as I am concerned Roberto Duran may of fought in name past the Iran Barkley, but it was not Roberto Duran in the ring for them fights. But it should be noted the fighter masquerading under his name was good enough to beat the tough Jorge Castro...
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