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Old 12-06-2012, 10:23 AM   #31
PaulieMc
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

The problem with Calzaghe's career was, because he was tied to FW, he didn't get the big fights until near the end of his career. Even he admits this. By the time he finally realised and got away from FW it was too late in the day.

The whole reason he wouldn't fight Froch was because Carl wasn't a big name at the time and Joe, knowing time was against him, only wanted the biggest fights possible against famous opponents after missing out on them for so long before quitting. The fact he didn't go to America for so long only hampered him and his legacy also.

Even though he fought mostly bums for the majority of his title reign, he was still an awesome fighter who could beat the best. The way he destroyed Lacy, outclassed a prime Kessler, unravelled Hopkins and out-fought an in-form again Roy Jones proved this.

It would have been great had he got the big fights earlier but that's just the way it went unfortunately. I don't care how much people may want to slate him, Calzaghe was brilliant and in my opinion is still the best 168lbs fighter who's ever lived.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGoode View Post
I still can't make a case for Calzaghe beating Hopkins, you don't score point for flapping your arms around wildly and missing with hundreds of punches. It's hard to make a case for Hopkins winning it either but at least he lands some scoring punches albeit in between rolling around like a fanny and pretending to be punched in the nuts.
Sorry can't fix the formatting but provided link just in case



Total Punches Hopkins Calzaghe
Landed 127 232
Thrown 468 707
Pct. 27% 33%
Jabs Hopkins Calzaghe
Landed 11 45
Thrown 93 224
Pct. 12% 20%
Power Punches Hopkins Calzaghe
Landed 116 187
Thrown 375 483
Pct. 31% 39%

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Don't embarrass yourself further talking about Calzaghe missing more when he landed 8% more than Hopkins in power punches and overall. Say what you want but Calzaghe won and the stats back it up. He also didn't have to resort to faking low blows

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Old 12-06-2012, 10:28 AM   #33
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

The fact is Calzaghe had a great career and is probably the best SMW of all time currently.

Imho he lacked the confidence to chase the big fights. I've read his book and for all his bravado he seemed to lack the true confidence and seemed to terrified of losing his unbeaten record which he admits was very important to him. He had only lost as a 12 year old amateur and he cried his eyes out by his own admission.

He'll be remembered as a great that could have probably beaten anyone if he had actually fought them. His attitude was always "let them come to me" when talking about the american fighters, and everyone knows you only get the recognition if you go over there and beat them.

Hardly a wasted talent but a shame that people will ask these questions of him when he could know the answer.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moneypaysbills View Post
Total Punches Hopkins Calzaghe
Landed 127 232
Thrown 468 707
Pct. 27% 33%
Jabs Hopkins Calzaghe
Landed 11 45
Thrown 93 224
Pct. 12% 20%
Power Punches Hopkins Calzaghe
Landed 116 187
Thrown 375 483
Pct. 31% 39%

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Don't embarrass yourself further talking about Calzaghe missing more when he landed 8% more than Hopkins in power punches and overall. Say what you want but Calzaghe won and the stats back it up. He also didn't have to resort to faking low blows

I've read those stats and watched the fight a dozen times. If you can watch that fight and tell me where all those power shots Calzaghe supposedly landed are you have better eye sight than me. Punch stats don't mean that much anyway, the cleaner, harder, important shots were all Hopkins and I still maintain that those stats are heavily manipulated.

I've already said it's hard to make a case for Hopkins winning anyway and I have no agenda against Calzaghe at all I am a fan of his, I just don't see how he won the fight when he seemed so incapable of landing a solid punch throughout the 12 rounds. I don't feel that I've particularly embarrassed myself by saying this at all as I have watched the fight so many times and come to the same conclusion but if those little numbers make it legit to you than obviously Calzaghe totally dominated the fight.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:37 AM   #35
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Punch stats, or computerbox are worthless to me, Im not about to trust a man pushing a button over what I see with my own eyes.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

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Originally Posted by Bill C84 View Post
Punch stats, or computerbox are worthless to me, Im not about to trust a man pushing a button over what I see with my own eyes.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:40 AM   #37
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGoode View Post
I've read those stats and watched the fight a dozen times. If you can watch that fight and tell me where all those power shots Calzaghe supposedly landed are you have better eye sight than me. Punch stats don't mean that much anyway, the cleaner, harder, important shots were all Hopkins and I still maintain that those stats are heavily manipulated.

I've already said it's hard to make a case for Hopkins winning anyway and I have no agenda against Calzaghe at all I am a fan of his, I just don't see how he won the fight when he seemed so incapable of landing a solid punch throughout the 12 rounds. I don't feel that I've particularly embarrassed myself by saying this at all as I have watched the fight so many times and come to the same conclusion but if those little numbers make it legit to you than obviously Calzaghe totally dominated the fight.
The Hopkins vs Calzaghe is VERY hard one to score. I think it's quite similar to the Froch vs Dirrell fight.

I've watched Hopkins - Calzaghe quite a few times since it happened and every time I do I always end up with the exact same scorecard, 115 - 112 to Calzaghe. In the first half of the fight you'd think Hopkins was going to run away with it, decked Joe and was making him miss wildly. However, after about round 5 Hopkins just completely switches off in my opinion and doesn't do **** all. This allowed Calzaghe back into the fight and he nicks the rest of the rounds mostly by work-rate and by pressing the action. Although he was still making Joe miss a lot, Hopkins was barely landing anything and wasn't coming forward.

Hopkins in my opinion threw the fight away. He was much cleverer and slicker than Calzaghe but didn't keep his foot on the gas for long enough. That's why he's been so pissed about it all these years and demanded a rematch, he's still kicking himself for letting Calzaghe nick it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:41 AM   #38
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGoode View Post
I've read those stats and watched the fight a dozen times. If you can watch that fight and tell me where all those power shots Calzaghe supposedly landed are you have better eye sight than me. Punch stats don't mean that much anyway, the cleaner, harder, important shots were all Hopkins and I still maintain that those stats are heavily manipulated.

I've already said it's hard to make a case for Hopkins winning anyway and I have no agenda against Calzaghe at all I am a fan of his, I just don't see how he won the fight when he seemed so incapable of landing a solid punch throughout the 12 rounds. I don't feel that I've particularly embarrassed myself by saying this at all as I have watched the fight so many times and come to the same conclusion but if those little numbers make it legit to you than obviously Calzaghe totally dominated the fight.
Unless you've counted up all the punches and have better eyesight and a memory than a computer then fair enough you're a level of superhuman that the rest of us need to catch up to. More likely though is that Calzaghe was landing and you didn't register it as a power punch or landing at all. Who manipulates these stats and for what reason. They can't change the outcome of the fight and most people agree that Joe won. Joe did the better work not Bhop and if you can't see that then we're not going to be able to agree on much since we can't watch the fight together and analyse it.

I don't think those numbers make the victory legit I think that you have been generous and given more rounds that were close to Hopkins when Joe did the better work even after being KD'd. The numbers are just proof that I have that Joe fought better, you have nothing to back up your argument. These numbers just support my opinion on who won the fight
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:16 AM   #39
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

He left it very late to really start mixing with the divisions elite so his record will always suffer for that in my eyes.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:23 AM   #40
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

It really doesn't matter in any case as the records show that Calzaghe won the fight and I'm quite happy with that being the case. However I don't give him any credit for the victory because in my eyes he was made to look poor by Hopkins and Hopkins let him get a decision instead of Calzaghe taking it. He was knocked down, made to look ineffective, got hit with the cleaner shots, and landed hardly anything. Yes Calzaghe won it but I don't give him kudos for it when I think back on his career because of how he won it, the same as I don't give Froch much credit for his "victory" over Dirrell, because of the nature of the fight.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Ward must unify the division first before he matches Calzaghe

as for Froch? see Mikkel Kessler
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:29 PM   #42
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Calzaghe's only problem was he scared away big names and his talent made all those he did face look as though they were all from the lower end of world class.

Best boxer ever ultimately, which is what matters.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:56 PM   #43
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dai View Post
I've got a lot of appreciation for the man's talent.

But his resume is diabolical.
Looks like the ignorant need schooling
Quote:
Even if you give him a pass for not fighting Jones, Hopkins or toney when they were near their primes, there is a ton of other people he could have fought, and beat who would have improved his legacy.
Jones chose not to fight him, Hopkins backed out (everyone knows that), and this is where you really show a lack of knowledge, Toney was a CW before Calzaghe even won his first SMW title.
Thats just part of the schooling

Quote:
Glen Johnson,
Calzaghe had to fight the winner of Johnson/Sheika, Johnson lost, Calzaghe agreed to fight Johnson if Johnson beat Woods in their third fight and was ringside and guess what Johnson lost again
They would have fought in 2004 if Johnson had waited instead of fighting Jones. Johnson told Dan Goosen to forget about Joe. Yet he came running back to Calzaghe when Joe became a superstar after whooping Lacy.

BBC Tuesday, 8 June, 2004

But Johnson is adamant Calzaghe has lost his chance, saying: "The fight is off. I'm not interested in fighting Joe Calzaghe any more.Johnson refused to wait for the fight to be rescheduled on 04,fact.

Calzaghe agreed to fight Johnson in September 06 on the condition that Johnson beat Woods in their 3rd fight. However Johnson lost and missed his chance. Calzaghe was ringside for this fight - some scared ducker hey. Why do people leave out this information when discussing this issue?

and I have a hard time believing Calzaghe would duck an old journeyman like Johnson to fight a younger, much more dangerous Mikkel Kessler!!! and yes Calzaghe WAS injury prone. he was notorious for hand problems.....Many of his fights including Lacy had to be rescheduled. He still ended up fighting them. He wanted to reschedule the Johnson fight but like i saidJ ohnson said he was "done" with Calzaghe.

everybody was beating johnson before he popped up on the hbo screen and knockout that over hyped HBO fighter jones jr

also not once throughout calzaghes reign was johnson ranked in the ringmag top 10!!
Quote:
Antonio tarver
Gets completely schooled by Hopkins and beaten easily. Calzaghe fought the winner
Quote:
Kelly pavlik,
Was offered before he won the MW title, when many of his fights were at SMW, but when Calzaghe was at the end of his career, Pavlik was 2 divisions lighter, then gets beat by a Calzaghe left over
Quote:
sven ottke
You know that Ottke didnt want to fight Calzaghe, Ottkes trainer even said Sven didnt want to know.
Calzaghe looked better against every common opponent they fought.
Quote:
Anthony Mundine
, now you must be joking. Why didnt Mundine challenge the champ? Mundine lost to Kessler and Calzaghe beat the winner of Mundine / Kessler
Quote:
Carl froch
When was Calzaghe supposed top fight him?
Froch was an unknown British champ when Calzaghe retired and didnt win a world title until after Calzaghe retired
Quote:
chad Dawson
Did Dawson really want it? Chad moved up from SMW to fight lesser comp at LHW then after Calzaghe retires can then make SMW again . Chad was holding a lesser WBO SMW title so would have been able to get a shot at Calzaghe if he had of stayed at SMW
Quote:
jermain Taylor.
Wanted 10 mil to face Calzaghe
Quote:
You'd back him to beat all of them but he didn't fight them
Indeed you would, except for Ottke who wouldnt fight Calzaghe, everyone of those fighters has a loss that dates back to Calzaghe
Quote:
Andre Ward eclipsed calzaghes entire career in two years.
How could he? There are no top SMWs at this time and the era is very weak at this time
Still nobody can counter this
Can any Ward fans answer the question below?

Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title.
Questions to the Ward fans and please dont duck the questions below

1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten?
2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought?


Lets read the answers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and debate against this

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler (Kessler the better win) (Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank (Eubank the better win)
Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) (Lacy the better win)
Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) (Mitchell better win)
Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) (Brewer the better win) (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) (Woodhall a better win)
Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) (Bika a better win)
Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika (Sheika a better win) (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) (Veit a better win)Then include the Reid win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put Mkertchyan ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.



Nobody can counter the above or answer the questions. In fact they hide from the questions
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:57 PM   #44
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper Simone View Post
He left it very late to really start mixing with the divisions elite so his record will always suffer for that in my eyes.
Before Lacy and Kessler, he beat Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Veit, Mitchell who had all held a SMW title at some point
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe: a wasted career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGoode View Post
I still can't make a case for Calzaghe beating Hopkins, you don't score point for flapping your arms around wildly and missing with hundreds of punches. It's hard to make a case for Hopkins winning it either but at least he lands some scoring punches albeit in between rolling around like a fanny and pretending to be punched in the nuts.
Almost everyone that scored the fight for Hopkins is lying to themselves and others. I understand that Hopkins is an American legend that people want to see as an iconic figure. America love a reformist and Hopkins as a former armed robber turned world champ is just the story that wins Americas hearts but...

Here are some solid facts
1. Calzaghe landed more than 100 punches than Hopkins throughout the fight.
2. Contrary to what people want to believe, Calzaghe also made Hopkins miss more
3. All round punch percentages, Calzaghe finished ahead of Hopkins
4. Calzaghe outlanded Hopkins in every round
5. A Byrd who scored for Hopkins it appears has a history for bad scorecards. Type in Adalaide Byrd in Google and see what comes up for yourself, still here are some little things for you to look at
a. A Byrd was the only judge out of the 3 scoring judges that had Mack ahead against Cloud
b. The K Pavlik - A Lopez fight was scored 98-92, 99-91 by the other 2 judges, A Byrd scored it 95-95
c. A Byrd was one of the judges that had Morales a 4 point loser against Maidana
d. In the S Aydin vs S Ouali fight, the other 2 judges scored clearly for Aydin. Byrd scored for Ouali
e. The J Almaraz/C Tyler fight was scored a Maj-Dec all because of one judge, guess which? A Byrd
f. The A DeMarco/J Reyes fight was a SD. Guess who the odd judge out was? A Byrd.
g. The R Torres - M Arnaoutis fight was a close fight, a point either way to 2 judges but a wide result scored by Byrd
h. In the A Pryor Jr/D Stanislavjevic SD, guess who the odd judge out was? You guessed it... A Byrd
i. The W Ferguson/J Lopez SD, guess who the odd judge out was? You guessed it... A Byrd

I think thats enough for you to get the picture with Byrd. Remember the other 2 judges scored clearly for Calzaghe

6. Calzaghe beat Hopkins in America, at a new weight with 3 American judges and Cortez as ref.
7. Calzaghe scored the single highest score card against Hopkins ever 116-111.
8. The 2 judges that scored for Calzaghe agreed on 9 of the rounds
9. Calzaghe landed more on Hopkins than anyone ever.




Now I know there will be a flood of people coming on here noting Hopkins scoring a flash KD in the first round, and I agree that Hopkins did win a few rounds even when he didnt land as often, but people are mad if they think Calzaghe won on workrate, Calzaghe won because he was able to land his left more often than Hopkins could land his right.
Calzaghe finished the stronger and took away the moments Hopkins likes down the stretch.
Other thoughts, If Hopkins thought he was winning, do you think he would have been looking for time out and would bother trying to get points deducted off of Calzaghe, of course he wouldnt, Hopkins knew he was losing.

What I do note is that nobody seems to mind Hopkins lost to Taylor. In the first Hopkins/Taylor fight, Jermaine was badly hurt and Hopkins looked the stronger at the end, yet it seems to upset alot of these people that Calzaghe beat Hopkins. Appears very biased.
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