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Old 12-06-2012, 10:31 PM   #1
burt bienstock
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Default I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

I was a great trainer who just before I died, confessed my great fighter
of dumping a fight I had won...I revealed this secret after the famous fighter and his manager died...Who was I and my famous champion ?
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

This sounds interesting. I can't wait to find the answer out.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
I was a great trainer who just before I died, confessed my great fighter
of dumping a fight I had won...I revealed this secret after the famous fighter and his manager died...Who was I and my famous champion ?
Correction : Before I died, confessed about my famous fighter dumping a fight he COULD NOT WIN...My confession was just before I died and years after all participants were dead...
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Benny Leonard's manager?

DIdn't he tell Benny 'you can't win this fight' before the Britton fight, and Leonard intentionally got himself dq'd?

I think I read that somewhere. I take it with a grain of salt. As a rule these near death confessions seem sketchy, i.e. Doc Kearns' plaster of paris' revelation. Kearns detailed how he allegedly doctored Dempsey's wrapsin the Willard fight. Ring magainze or someone followed the instructions with strict detail. The plaster they came up with crumbled at the sightest touch.

There are other examples of managers and trainers spouting seemingly outrageous claims years or decades after the fact. Archie Moore was famous for exagerating his tales. There are others.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Many years after Benny Leonard was dead his trainer Manny Seamon said Leonards manager Billy Gibson had told him before the fight with Jack Britton that he was not to win.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Leonard and Gibson both passed in 1947, Britton in 1962.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

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Originally Posted by hhascup View Post
Many years after Benny Leonard was dead his trainer Manny Seamon said Leonards manager Billy Gibson had told him before the fight with Jack Britton that he was not to win.
Henry, if I have to lose I am happy it is to you. Yes Mannie Seamon ,a great trainer with impeccable credentials as an honorable boxing man revealed before his death that he saw Benny Leonard sobbing after his manager, the connected Billy Gibson told him "Benny you CAN'T win tonight",against the great veteran WW Jack Britton, moments before they left the dressing room,June 26,1922...Leonard had no other choice but to adhere to Gibson's orders and in the 13th round Leonard dropped Britton with a body shot and whie Britton was on the canvas walked around the referee and uncharacteristicaly walloped Britton on the side of his noggin
forcing the ref to disqualify Benny Leonard...Leonard avoided for the rest of his life the subject of that night...Seamon who briefly trained Joe Louis after Chappie Blackburn died revealed his secret just before he passed away about 30 years after Benny Leonard died...cheers..
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

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Originally Posted by The Funny Man 7 View Post
Benny Leonard's manager?

DIdn't he tell Benny 'you can't win this fight' before the Britton fight, and Leonard intentionally got himself dq'd?

I think I read that somewhere. I take it with a grain of salt. As a rule these near death confessions seem sketchy, i.e. Doc Kearns' plaster of paris' revelation. Kearns detailed how he allegedly doctored Dempsey's wrapsin the Willard fight. Ring magainze or someone followed the instructions with strict detail. The plaster they came up with crumbled at the sightest touch.

There are other examples of managers and trainers spouting seemingly outrageous claims years or decades after the fact. Archie Moore was famous for exagerating his tales. There are others.
FM, don't take it with a "grain of salt" as you will develop high blood pressure. Leonard the coolest and brainiest fighter did not all of a sudden turn into a wild street fighter..He DID what he had to do or ELSE...
P.S.What did Mannie Seamon have to gain by revealing this event 60 years later, just before Seamon passed away ? NADA !
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Benny Leonard is so great - even when he takes a dive, his opponent is on the canvas.

Last edited by the_bigunit; 12-07-2012 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Correction : Before I died, confessed about my famous fighter dumping a fight he COULD NOT WIN...My confession was just before I died and years after all participants were dead...
Was Jack Britton who died in 1962 not a participant?
I could not find any bioagraphal infromation on [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. When did he pass. If it was before 62. I would call this post missleading.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Thanks, Burt. I love these questions. Always learn something new.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

In the Ray Arcel A Boxing Biography, it states that Benny Valgar stopped Mannie Seamon in the 2nd round, but Seamon used the name of Frankie Wilson.

The story goes to say the Valgar's opponent failed to show up and the solution was to draft as his opponent Arcel's predecessor as his trainer, Mannie Seamon.

If you look at Valgar's record you will see that on July 12, 1918 he stopped a Frankie Wilson in the 2nd round. It also says that there not sure if correct Frankie Mason--Frankie Wilson was entered incorrectly as being Valger's opponent on this date.

Benny Leonard and Benny Valgar were both managed by Billy Gibson, an astute handler of fighters who also managed the career of future heavyweight champion Gene Tunney. The two Bennys often sparred with each other in the gym (what a fan treat that must have been!) but never met in an official fight.

You can also go to the following article from a book on Gene Tunney:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

On ancestry.com they do list a Mannie Season who was born on August 15, 1897 and died in March of 1983 in New York.

Last edited by hhascup; 12-07-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

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Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
Was Jack Britton who died in 1962 not a participant?
I could not find any bioagraphal infromation on [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. When did he pass. If it was before 62. I would call this post missleading.
rip, Mannie Seamon passed away in 1983....He kept this secret til the time
just prior to Seamon's death ...Every boxing guru who saw that bout
felt there was hanky panky involved ,not so much that Britton one of the VERY greatest welterweights of alltime did not have a chance against the great LW Benny Leonard, but that boxing's greatest ever "thinker" Leonard
would suddenly fly around the referee who was counting over Jack Britton,
and bop the prostate Britton on the side of the head...It was well known at that time that Leonard's well known manager Billy Gibson was well
"acquainted " with the "boys " from New York...
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Henry, if I have to lose I am happy it is to you. Yes Mannie Seamon ,a great trainer with impeccable credentials as an honorable boxing man revealed before his death that he saw Benny Leonard sobbing after his manager, the connected Billy Gibson told him "Benny you CAN'T win tonight",against the great veteran WW Jack Britton, moments before they left the dressing room,June 26,1922...Leonard had no other choice but to adhere to Gibson's orders and in the 13th round Leonard dropped Britton with a body shot and whie Britton was on the canvas walked around the referee and uncharacteristicaly walloped Britton on the side of his noggin
forcing the ref to disqualify Benny Leonard...Leonard avoided for the rest of his life the subject of that night...Seamon who briefly trained Joe Louis after Chappie Blackburn died revealed his secret just before he passed away about 30 years after Benny Leonard died...cheers..

B ,I beleive I am right in saying this was the basis for Hemingway's great short story,"Fifty Grand".
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: I a trainer revealed a secret dive before death

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
rip, Mannie Seamon passed away in 1983....He kept this secret til the time
just prior to Seamon's death ...Every boxing guru who saw that bout
felt there was hanky panky involved ,not so much that Britton one of the VERY greatest welterweights of alltime did not have a chance against the great LW Benny Leonard, but that boxing's greatest ever "thinker" Leonard
would suddenly fly around the referee who was counting over Jack Britton,
and bop the prostate Britton on the side of the head...It was well known at that time that Leonard's well known manager Billy Gibson was well
"acquainted " with the "boys " from New York...
1983! Wow it sounds like he could have given Moses a run for the money.
Once the Leonard/Britton fight was brought up I tried to find information to conferm rather or not it was the right answer. One site I found, and I don't have the link. Suguests that Britton claimed the knockdown was a foul, but the reff and everyone else who saw the punch saw it as clean. During the count Leonard it Britton who slumped down. It suguests that Britton was also in on the fix. In some way or another.
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