Fights or Fighters you remember that "evolved" the skill sets in MMA?

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by rusty nails

exactly.. thats why i said RECOGNISED as the first.. all thanks to his movie star background and the massive cultural impact his movies left.

I wasnt disagreeing fella, big difference between the most famous, and the first, as Superhut seems to be claiming.

But the myth of Lee dying whilst creating ''MMA'' and nobody cross trained until Royce entered the cage is a lot more glamorous...

Harold Howard was cross training before the likes of Frank and Wandy entered the cage...he had a system...

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by sugarngold

Of course, I've heard all of this before but in my mind the inclusion of Ken Shamrock in the first UFC throws this out the window. At the time Ken was without a doubt the best shootfighter in the world which combines catch wrestling with muay thai striking. If you look at Ken's fights in Pancrase Pre-UFC 1 - he was throwing people all over the place. At the time he was either already the first King of Pancrase or was one fight away from the actual title fight having already defeated the top competition in Japan. In his fight with Matt Hume - he suplexed him on his head - ala Severn/Macias. Ken jut never had the chance to showcase his throws in the UFC and especially not in UFC 1 because Royce choked his ass out!

Ken Shamrock was a submission wrestler. Ken was not an elite level, Olympic accepted style of, wrestler. I think he wrestled in high school. He certainly wasn't on the level of Servern, Coleman, or Couture. Severn jumped into the UFC on a couple weeks notice, with very little knowledge of submissions, after several DAYS of training against workout partners trying to punch and kick him(with gloves on) as he tried to take them down.

No one watched the first 3 UFCs and thought "Wow, look at this Shamrock guy. He is proving wrestling is for real!!!" Wrestling was looked at differently after UFC IV and V, and it was all due to Freddie Mercury.

[rusty nails]

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

Ken Shamrock was a submission wrestler. Ken was not an elite level, Olympic accepted style of, wrestler. I think he wrestled in high school. He certainly wasn't on the level of Servern, Coleman, or Couture. Severn jumped into the UFC on a couple weeks notice, with very little knowledge of submissions, after several DAYS of training against workout partners trying to punch and kick him(with gloves on) as he tried to take them down.

No one watched the first 3 UFCs and thought "Wow, look at this Shamrock guy. He is proving wrestling is for real!!!" Wrestling was looked at differently after UFC IV and V, and it was all due to Freddie Mercury.

i agree but id just like to add that ken was actually a very good freestyle wrestler. its not common knowledge but he actually trialled for the olympics on a dare whilst half drunk and didnt get pinned. he just had no idea how to score points in greco. this was all in his book but ive heard frank back up the story elsewhere

[rekcutnevets]

My own list

Royce- BJJ

Severn- Wrestling

Tank Abbott- GnP Creator, and rule updater. I still remember laughing out loud when I saw the rules for UFC VII, and saw the inclusion of NO FISHHOOKING. Anyone that has seen the Abbott vs Taktarov fight will get why that was a funny addition.

Ruas- The fuck your guillotine slam and demonstrating that leg kicks can lead to limping and whelps.

Maurice Smith- Strikers have a chance if they learn how to grapple

Steven Seagal- The Front Kick

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by rusty nails

i dont know how this is relevant in any way to the discussion.. a guy wanted a job at a gym and unfortunately didnt get it..

Because the school Frank was excited about getting a job at was a Jeet Kune Do school and he was mightily excited and everyone knows the only reason why anyone would get excited about getting a job as a teacher at the Inosanto Acedemy is because of it's connection to Bruce Lee.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by rusty nails

i agree but id just like to add that ken was actually a very good freestyle wrestler. its not common knowledge but he actually trialled for the olympics on a dare whilst half drunk and didnt get pinned. he just had no idea how to score points in greco. this was all in his book but ive heard frank back up the story elsewhere

You probably heard Frank say it in the Ken vs Kimbo fight(that never happened) build up. I think that is where I heard him say it.

I know you aren't trying to strike up an argument with me, nor I with you, I just want to clarify. I know Ken had some wrestling skills, but he wasn't an elite level wrestler. Ken did not put wrestling on the map, so to speak, in terms of being important in mma.

[rusty nails]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

Because the school Frank was excited about getting a job at was a Jeet Kune Do school and he was mightily excited .

right.. ive got that part.. frank shamrock was excited about getting a job in a gym which taught jiu jitsu, wrestling and jeet kun do principles..... and???.....

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

My own list

Royce- BJJ

Severn- Wrestling

Tank Abbott- GnP Creator, and rule updater. I still remember laughing out loud when I saw the rules for UFC VII, and saw the inclusion of NO FISHHOOKING. Anyone that has seen the Abbott vs Taktarov fight will get why that was a funny addition.

Ruas- The fuck your guillotine slam and demonstrating that leg kicks can lead to limping and whelps.

Maurice Smith- Strikers have a chance if they learn how to grapple

Steven Seagal- The Front Kick

Good list.

Not so sure about the Segal though. The videos I saw, Segal was showing Silva kicking with the lead leg. Silva KO'd Belfort with the rear leg, and the kick looked an awful lot closer to Capoeira than it did to the Segal stuff.

And coincidentally, there's vids out there of Silva getting down in the Capoeira circle.

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by rusty nails

right.. ive got that part.. frank shamrock was excited about getting a job in a gym which taught jiu jitsu, wrestling and jeet kun do principles..... and???.....

At that time? That was 2000. If I remember correctly during that year the Academy was offering wrestling, BJJ, Capoeira, FMA, Silat, Muay Thai. Actually, that is no different back then as it is now. They still offer the same classes.

They also offered Swash Buckling on Sundays. Strictly for movie actors and stunt people. Possible that Frank was excited about the connections he could make in Hollywood because it was about the same time he was thinking about fixing his teeth for the silver screen.

(And I edited the original post you're quoting. I guess you missed the additional info I added.)

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

Good list.

Not so sure about the Segal though.

That may not have been intended to be taken seriously.

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

That may not have been intended to be taken seriously.

Well, it's difficult to tell when two of the top guys in the sports are training in traditional martial arts in a sport where very few train in traditional martial arts.

You get Silva with Segal, and GPS studying under Van Damme. Makes you wonder if these guys are onto something...

[rusty nails]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

At that time? That was 2000. If I remember correctly during that year the Academy was offering wrestling, BJJ, Capoeira, FMA, Silat, Muay Thai. Actually, that is no different back then as it is now. They still offer the same classes.

They also offered Swash Buckling on Sundays. Strictly for movie actors and stunt people. Possible that Frank was excited about the connections he could make in Hollywood because it was about the same time he was thinking about fixing his teeth for the silver screen.

(And I edited the original post you're quoting. I guess you missed the additional info I added.)

thats all great but why are you telling me all this??

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by rusty nails

thats all great but why are you telling me all this??

You brought up Frank Shamrock, who coincidentally has gone on record saying "Lee is the God Father of MMA". A sentiment I happen to agree with.

I mentioned his wish to get hired at a Jeet Kune Do Academy during that part of the discussion because you're the one who brought up Frank who seems to be on the same page as I am in regards to Lee's standing in the MMA world.

[SuperHut]

Anyway,

This is the last I hope to talk about Lee in this thread. This is what I have observed:

1. There are people who only know about Lee from his films who think he would beat Mike Tyson with a flying kick.

2. There are people who don't know shit about Lee, and think all he made were movies and don't know what they are talking about.

3. There are people who recognize that Lee was ahead of his time and recognize him as the first guy to teach a Martial Art SYSTEM that was open to using what works rather than limiting oneself to style or tradition.

4. There are people who think Lee was just an ordinary guy.

5. And then, there are people who know that Lee would have zero interest in MMA because the rules don't allow eye gouging, biting or fish hooking.

As long as you're not #1 or #2, then I really have no quarrel with you.

[rusty nails]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

You brought up Frank Shamrock, who coincidentally has gone on record saying "Lee is the God Father of MMA". A sentiment I happen to agree with.

I mentioned his wish to get hired at a Jeet Kune Do Academy during that part of the discussion because you're the one who brought up Frank who seems to be on the same page as I am in regards to Lee's standing in the MMA world.

godfather: A man who is influential in a movement or organization, through providing support for it or through playing a leading or innovative part


i dont disagree with that. theres no argument that lee qualifies in the above criteria.
what im saying is many others have done far more and lee is just drop in the ocean of martial arts knowledge.