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Old 12-09-2012, 11:22 AM   #46
lora
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

I've still got a throbbing erection.

I've not got a lot of time for fighters who jump up weights just to feast on weaker weightclasses, but with Pac at 140 and 147 it was ok because it was a rather unusual feat for a fighter previously fighting at 126 and 130.still, the large contingent of his fans that felt the need to make out that this was an even more monster badass fighter at those weights was grating and turned me against rooting for a fighter i'd previously liked.

PLeased for Marquez to finally get his win over Manny.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #47
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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This forces Mayweather to do nothing, mate. He was already not fighting Pacquiao. He's just going to still not be fighting Pacquiao. If anything, this helps him continue his regularly scheduled programming. He might even fight Marquez again with these nice developments. And Canelo hasn't really done anything that should worry Mayweather, from where I can see. I think he'd be easier than Trout, Cotto or Lara for Mayweather. I don't know how fighting Cotto is cherry-picking and fighting Canelo is picking some tough fight. I figured he was going to try and get Canelo specifically for his Mexican Mayday special anyway.
Alvarez is bigger, stronger, faster and harder hitting than Cotto. It's a different proposition. Trout is going to do what, outbox Mayweather? Lara is someone who could trouble Mayweather though, although I'm not sure how he does at this level

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How did he prove that he was the greatest featherweight in recent times? He didn't face Morales, he barely squeaked by an old Barrera, he got a dubious draw against Pac because of an incompetent judge and then had his hands full with Chris John and Freddie Norwood.
Well he isn't necessarily a lock for number 1, but:

His resume from FW-SFW is stronger than any other FW in the last 20 years in terms of quality and depth

Morales, MAB and Hamed's management avoided him, not his fault he didn't fight them

Barrera he beat decisively, watch it again, they were both the same age when they fought

Pacquaio he won 9-7 rounds against, yes maybe it should have been a 10-6 in the first, but giving Pacquaio 5 rounds is pretty generous. Also Pacquaio also should have maybe been docked a point for hitting him on the floor. He ends up winning the series (in reality) against Pacquaio, the other top FW of his era

Chris John an undefeated champion who still hasn't lost, he beat clearly, hardly a black mark. The Norwood fight could have gone either way and Norwood was 1 of the best H2H of the era. Compared to Morales gift decision against an old Espadas in their first fight, these aren't too bad.

Every fighter has close controversial fights though, Marquez never really got clearly beaten by anyone his own size, while taking on all comers. which is impressive.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #48
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

Excellent fight.

Historical victory.

Ezz-Walcott4-like ending.

Marquez' place among mexican's all-time greats must be reconsidered.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:48 AM   #49
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

I don't think so lester re that last point.

We already knew he was more or less equal with Pac both being in their prime.The same fighters fighting AGAIN both getting past their best now and above their best weight, and already getting to the point where losses unless of exceptional circumstance were not going to be held against them.

Nobody really holds Marquez loss against Mayweather against him too much i hope not?

Same thing here for winner and victor.This was a personal triumph for Marquez-aka Ali Frazier 3-, but even going in it was hardly the kind of fight that was going to have anyone reassessing either fighter to any great extent regardless of the outcome imo.If it was Marquez KO'ing some much younger really good prime fighter then yeah, but we already know the score with these guys when they were at their best.One of them finally getting a clear win with both having shown signs of decline for years isn't THAT big a deal for judging either one imo, though as boxed says we probably need to wait a while and see what happens next.Now if something like this had happened in the 2nd fight....
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:34 PM   #50
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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I think Floyd was waiting for Pac to deteriorate enough so that he'd time his fight with him nicely. I don't think he was planning to avoid Pacquiao forever.

As for Cotto, at his best he was a very good fighter, and that was about 5 years ago at least.

Canelo is unproven sure, but for mine he poses a bigger threat than re-trad Miguel does.

There's no reason whatsoever for Mayweather-Marquez 2.
No, there's no reason whatsoever from the fan's perspective or history's perspective for May/Marquez two. I didn't suggest that. I'm saying it might happen because of money. I'm saying Marquez would possibly subject himself to it again for another gigantic payday with Mayweather's all-too-willing help with some new bullshit angle about how he wears the weight better now and showed it by knocking out Pacquiao and ...ugh. I don't believe Canelo poses more threat than Cotto, but we can agree to disagree. It's guess work, of course. I think Cotto was still very good when he fought Mayweather, though he's obviously not peak and, like anybody who's been fighting as good a competition level for as long has taken some significant wear and tear.

As for Mayweather's plans regarding Pacquiao, I'm of the opinion that it was basically a matter of dealing with Arum and he and Arum were never going to get along enough to risk Pac on him. Arum holds a grudge and Mayweather isn't exactly an easy-going professional fighter or businessman either.

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Alvarez is bigger, stronger, faster and harder hitting than Cotto. It's a different proposition. Trout is going to do what, outbox Mayweather? Lara is someone who could trouble Mayweather though, although I'm not sure how he does at this level
I don't believe Canelo is faster than Cotto. I don't see it. He's bigger for certain, and I'd concede bigger one-punch brute force, for that one punch, the left hook. He hasn't proven anything else to me at all. I don't think he's more skilled, though more two-handed offense. Even though I think he's a good, promising young gun. Also, I said I thought Trout would be tougher than Canelo for Mayweather. I certainly didn't say he would beat and outbox Mayweather. I just think he'd be a harder fight. So, let's not argue that point.

I'm not sure about Lara either, but, again, I didn't say any of those guys would beat Mayweather, only that I figured them tougher (and more proven, I'll add) for Mayweather than Canelo. Canelo's a good, unproven, young fighter. That's it, until he steps it up and proves otherwise. Trout's been proven at a higher level, now, as has Cotto and Lara. Easily. And at 154. Still, I don't favour anyone up to 154 against Mayweather. I think some guys are close to even money, but I directly favour none. Even Martinez coming down to 154, though I have no expectation of that happening. Him, if still viable there, I'd consider a 51-49 type shot in favour of Mayweather. That's the best I give anyone 154 and below with him in current form.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:39 PM   #51
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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I just wanted to know the thoughts and reactions on the fight and the knockout from Marquez
yeah, his best days & his time in the limelight are over. he struggled in his last fight and lost this one. Goodbye Pac
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:42 PM   #52
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

Very happy for Marquez....he deserved it !!!
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:56 PM   #53
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

marquez (provided that drug tests come back clean) put himself in the elite category of all-time great fighters last night. his only clear loss was to a much bigger mayweather. in all of his other losses, he could have easily been awarded a decision.

haven't read through the other posts but the ko last night has to go down as one of the greatest right hands ever thrown. it's in marciano-walcott territory.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:59 PM   #54
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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Same thing here for winner and victor.This was a personal triumph for Marquez-aka Ali Frazier 3-, but even going in it was hardly the kind of fight that was going to have anyone reassessing either fighter to any great extent regardless of the outcome imo.If it was Marquez KO'ing some much younger really good prime fighter then yeah, but we already know the score with these guys when they were at their best.One of them finally getting a clear win with both having shown signs of decline for years isn't THAT big a deal for judging either one imo, though as boxed says we probably need to wait a while and see what happens next.Now if something like this had happened in the 2nd fight....
Fair assessment.

To be clear I'm not saying we should view Marquez as some kind of H2H monster from now on.
And personally, I'm more interested in H2H rankings.

But in terms of resume it is a big victory and it will improve Marquez' legacy in the eyes of the general boxing public.
Even though both fighters have declined significantly, Pac is dependent on his physical attributes, Marquez aged better, etc.


Still not enough to surpass Lopez, of course.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:20 PM   #55
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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I don't believe Canelo is faster than Cotto. I don't see it. He's bigger for certain, and I'd concede bigger one-punch brute force, for that one punch, the left hook. He hasn't proven anything else to me at all. I don't think he's more skilled, though more two-handed offense. Even though I think he's a good, promising young gun. Also, I said I thought Trout would be tougher than Canelo for Mayweather. I certainly didn't say he would beat and outbox Mayweather. I just think he'd be a harder fight. So, let's not argue that point.

I'm not sure about Lara either, but, again, I didn't say any of those guys would beat Mayweather, only that I figured them tougher (and more proven, I'll add) for Mayweather than Canelo. Canelo's a good, unproven, young fighter. That's it, until he steps it up and proves otherwise. Trout's been proven at a higher level, now, as has Cotto and Lara. Easily. And at 154. Still, I don't favour anyone up to 154 against Mayweather. I think some guys are close to even money, but I directly favour none. Even Martinez coming down to 154, though I have no expectation of that happening. Him, if still viable there, I'd consider a 51-49 type shot in favour of Mayweather. That's the best I give anyone 154 and below with him in current form.
Mayweather should be bullyable at 154, with his lack of power and strength.
I think Canelo's a more dynamic puncher than Cotto, who is a bit pondorous, so yes I think he's faster although not night and day. I think he has a better right hand. He might be better defensively, Cotto nearly always gets hit, Alvarez doesn't too often although it's goto be said he didn't look great stepping up against Mosley though

Guerrero with his Winkyesque southpaw high guard and jab is an interesting technical fight I think

From a business perspective Lara won't get the fight and Martinez will be seen as too high risk

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Originally Posted by Lester1583 View Post
Excellent fight.

Historical victory.

Ezz-Walcott4-like ending.

Marquez' place among mexican's all-time greats must be reconsidered.
What a controversial decision win for Walcott? Not sure I see it
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:31 PM   #56
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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What a controversial decision win for Walcott? Not sure I see it
Marquez' win is controversial - fake KO and a fast count from the crooked referee - it was just a slip.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:43 PM   #57
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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Mayweather should be bullyable at 154, with his lack of power and strength.

He should be bullyable every time he moves up it seems. And he never seems to be, really. He's much stronger than given credit for. Physical, total body strength, as opposed to his punching power, which is just respectable at these weights.



I think Canelo's a more dynamic puncher than Cotto, who is a bit pondorous, so yes I think he's faster although not night and day. I think he has a better right hand. He might be better defensively, Cotto nearly always gets hit, Alvarez doesn't too often although it's goto be said he didn't look great stepping up against Mosley though

We'll have to agree to disagree on hand speed, but I agree it's not night and day, whoever you pick. However, I also feel Cotto has better foot speed, and that it's significant enough for me to consider in a H2H sense. I can see thinking Canelo has a better right hand, as Cotto's a converted southpaw weirdo who's also had medical issues on the right arm, injury and surgery. I don't believe Canelo is better defensively. Not that the bar is too high, mind. You're right, he really didn't impress against a Mosley he should have impressed against. I'm not sold on him as an elite fighter at all. Alvarez doesn't get hit much against the likes of Cintron's ragged bag of bones.


Guerrero with his Winkyesque southpaw high guard and jab is an interesting technical fight I think

I think Guerrero is only interesting in that he's on a similar playing field to most of the guys at welterweight (Meaning I think Mayweather picks him apart), aka, as good a fight as any for him there, nothing that interesting being there. An interesting technical fight to me would be Guerrero vs Bradley, someone on a similar level, to me.



From a business perspective Lara won't get the fight and Martinez will be seen as too high risk

That's how I see it. Unfortunately. I'd love to see what Mayweather would be trying with them. Those, I find technically interesting fights.
In green, my man ^^^.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:07 PM   #58
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

Great fight. Best of the four.

I thought Pac was going to stop Marquez inside the next four or so rounds when it happened. Pac finally started to land regularily and push Marquez out of his comfort zone in a way he really hasn't done since the very first round between them - and then... A good reminder of why boxing is such a glorious sport.

Was a bit worried there for a while before Pac came to.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:07 PM   #59
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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Still not enough to surpass Lopez, of course.
He would have to beat Mayweather. And Martinez. And maybe Wlad. Then, he would be close.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:55 PM   #60
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Default Re: Thoughts on the Pacquiao/Marquaz fight

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How did he prove that he was the greatest featherweight in recent times? He didn't face Morales, he barely squeaked by an old Barrera, he got a dubious draw against Pac because of an incompetent judge and then had his hands full with Chris John and Freddie Norwood.
I had him beating Pac, John and Norwood. Morales moved up before JMM was a big player in the division. Pac and MAB were probably the best 2 in the division when Morales moved up and JMM took on the victor imo.

Floyd aside, I don't have him losing a fight.
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