Was Leonards win over Tommy Hearns his greatest accomplishment.?

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Ray knew when to fight Hagler that is for sure. in retrospect it seems clear Ray could beat him, but on the night he beat Marvin it was a little surreal, sort of like Manny being knocked out by Marquez tonight. I didn't think Ray could hang in there with Marvin.

what are you talking about "in retrospect it seems clear Ray could beat him"?

That thought never occurred to me ESPECIALLY in light of the way he took 5 yrs off with the exception of returning every time he saw Marv looking slow & hittable. In other words, prime for prime, and h2h, prime Marv would knock Sugar stiff! Ray didnt even belong in the same ring w Marv

[Balder]

Withot question the win over The Hitman was Leonards Greatest win, It is what made him an ATG.

His win Over Hagler was not really a win, most thought Hagler had won it. Sugar was just doing the pitty pats at the end of the rounds to steal points. HE never hurt Hagler, ran the whole fight and won narrowly at that. The Hagler fight to me is not a carreer defining fight. Although it showed what kinda fighter and person he was. Good and Bad

Duran / Leonad 1 is he next best performance and he lost in that one. Great performance and is not lessened for it.

Hearns was a monster, and was beating Ray the entire fight, He just ran out of gas and Ray tagged him. But without question in showed his heart and will to fight and stayed up despite being hit with bombs. Hearns of course won the next time and showed he was a better boxer than Ray in both.

Rays win VS Hearns 1. Greatest victory
Ray VS Benitez is his next greatest win
Ray Vs Duran 1 Lossed but showed his skill and ability

The fouth spot to me is debatable, probably Hagler although I think he lost

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by redrooster

I'd have been more impressed with a win over Nunn or Norris cuz they are fast & Hagler was slow

after a 5 year layoff i'm suitably impressed with a slow hagler.

[Joe E]

No. His win over Hagler was.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by redrooster

what are you talking about "in retrospect it seems clear Ray could beat him"?

That thought never occurred to me ESPECIALLY in light of the way he took 5 yrs off with the exception of returning every time he saw Marv looking slow & hittable. In other words, prime for prime, and h2h, prime Marv would knock Sugar stiff! Ray didnt even belong in the same ring w Marv

well like you said you would be more impressed with a win over Norris or Nunn since they were faster and younger and Ray could not use tactics much to win. With Marvin he was quicker. In retrospect we all think that because Hagler was older and inactive and ready to retire, but at the time we saw him as the same Hagler who stopped Hearns 2 years before.

I am not sure Ray didn't belong in the ring with him, He timed his style and knew how to fight him. As a matter of fact, I think part of Ray taking off time was yes, waiting for Marvin to slip a little but also Ray had to be a solid 160 to hold Hagler when he came in close. In round one I think it was, I remember Ray pushing Hagler and Marvin flew. I that told me Ray was strong at the weight.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by redrooster

The Hearns fight was what made Leonard Leonard - a superstar that transcended the sport to take over the spot that Ali vacated, and what turned me and many others, into a fan (I'm not ashamed to admit it)

what made the win so impressive was how Sugar used his defense in the first third of the fight to stymie Tommy's offense, & take some of the steam out of him. Then later, pour it on to to tear apart the Hitman

Sugar's BIGGEST moment and IMO his most complete performance, came in the Hagler fight, a fight he put off for 5 yrs. Under the circumstances (5 yr layoff, no tuneup, no previous experience @ middleweight) his win seems that much more impressive

as for no one giving him a chance, that is strictly myth. I myself know of many giving Ray a realistic shot including Bob Arum who spoke of an upset just days prior to the fight

The Hearns fight he showed his superstar status was earned. Although to be honest, it was not his offense which broke Hearns apart, it was Hearns getting tired in round 13 and Ray taking advantage. Had Tommy not become tired, he would have outboxed Ray and won a decision. The "your blowing son your blowing it" was good timing, but not exactly the reason Ray won.

And the win against Hagler was the cherry on top. Ray was a calculating guys always, especially after he retired. No way was he the fighter of the decade like they said. That should have been reserved for someone who fought the whole decade. He was inactive for half the time.

[Hands of Iron]

I'd agree with you, if only Leonard hadn't had Hearns hurt and in trouble as early as the sixth. In hindsight, he feasibly could've turned on the juice earlier than the 13th and stopped Hearns.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

I'd agree with you, if only Leonard hadn't had Hearns hurt and in trouble as early as the sixth. In hindsight, he feasibly could've turned on the juice earlier than the 13th and stopped Hearns.

I agree Ray could have turned it on, but the risk of being countered was what made him hold back and follow Hearns and get hit by that jab. I think Ray figured take the jab but not the right since think Ray was afraid of being countered and nailed and also I think he was a little stunned at Hearns speed and didn't know what to do with the jabs that quick picking him up and down
. I also think Ray was not sure how much energy Hearns had left. He punched himself out a little in rounds 6 and 7 and here was Hearns still jabbing him fast to the body and head. Hagler when he fought Hearns figured he would take it all and hit Hearns and it worked out, but look what punches he had to take and he was solid at 160 in 1985 more than Tommy. But he won. Hagler just walked in and stood there and landed his punches.

When Ray finally hurt Tommy again in round 13, he went crazy to get the knockout because he knew he had the chance which took him 5 rounds to get back. He didn't want Tommy to recover anymore he saw his chance, and even then he had to keep punching to put Tommy down. By that point Tommy was exhausted. Ray was actually took more chances in the rematch I thought than the first fight. It was a more physical fight, but the skills were a lot slower.
By the way, at the time the fight was stopped in round 14,Tommy said he could continue, which I don't agree with. He could have gone on another 15 seconds, but Ray would have stopped him worse. I think the ref Davey Pearl gave Tommy a longer career by stopping it a little early. And Richard Steele with Barkley and Hagler prevented Tommy from taking punches after being hurt. That is part of the reason Hearns could have a long career. Many fighters who have short careers took those long beatings. They don't seem to recover well. I know I went off on another subject. My point is Davey Pearl helped Tommy have a great career.

[TheSouthpaw]

Hearns had Leonard hurt early too

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

Hearns had Leonard hurt early too

both were tentative a little because both felt the others power. They were both trying to counterpunch in the beginning yet were not taking many chances, then slowly they got closer. It was an interesting fight. Hearns vs. Leonard (even the second fight) always had many different themes. Hearns following then Leonard tunned then Hearns hurt, then Leonard pursues, then Hearns boxes then Hearns comes on more. It was always a good give and take and changes in momentum. Very similar to JMM vs. Pacman in a way.. They were very evenly matched. Hearns/Leonard was never the same the whole fight. You never knew what would happen in their fights. That is why a third fight would have interesting. I think Tommy wins very similarly to how JMM did last night against Pacman.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

well like you said you would be more impressed with a win over Norris or Nunn since they were faster and younger and Ray could not use tactics much to win. With Marvin he was quicker. In retrospect we all think that because Hagler was older and inactive and ready to retire, but at the time we saw him as the same Hagler who stopped Hearns 2 years before.

I am not sure Ray didn't belong in the ring with him, He timed his style and knew how to fight him. As a matter of fact, I think part of Ray taking off time was yes, waiting for Marvin to slip a little but also Ray had to be a solid 160 to hold Hagler when he came in close. In round one I think it was, I remember Ray pushing Hagler and Marvin flew. I that told me Ray was strong at the weight.

of that there is no doubt. so while Leonard had the win over another name fighter, it was a name fighter whose abilities were depleted. My standards are somewhat higher than some others here on the forum. as someone here said, "I am suitably impressed with a win over a slow Hagler". They're (Leonard fans) just not very discriminating

no way in hell was he anything close to the version of the Hearns fight. I remember the following morning Marvin was on either GMA or the Today show and Leoanrd was seated next to him. marvin looked him in the eye and said "you cheated the public by refusing to face me". Sugar didnt object; he didnt have the courage to.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by redrooster

of that there is no doubt. so while Leonard had the win over another name fighter, it was a name fighter whose abilities were depleted. My standards are somewhat higher than some others here on the forum. as someone here said, "I am suitably impressed with a win over a slow Hagler". They're (Leonard fans) just not very discriminating

no way in hell was he anything close to the version of the Hearns fight. I remember the following morning Marvin was on either GMA or the Today show and Leoanrd was seated next to him. marvin looked him in the eye and said "you cheated the public by refusing to face me". Sugar didnt object; he didnt have the courage to.

When were they on GMA? A day after Hagler and Leonard in 1987? I didn't know that.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

When were they on GMA? A day after Hagler and Leonard in 1987? I didn't know that.

the day after Hagler Hearns they sat Leonard next to Hagler, I dont know why. I cant remember if it was the Today Show or GMA but it was one of the two

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

I agree Ray could have turned it on....

he had problems hitting a moving target (see Terry Norris) and had to wait for Tommy to slow down in the later rounds

[TheSouthpaw]

Originally Posted by Balder

Withot question the win over The Hitman was Leonards Greatest win, It is what made him an ATG.

His win Over Hagler was not really a win, most thought Hagler had won it. Sugar was just doing the pitty pats at the end of the rounds to steal points. HE never hurt Hagler, ran the whole fight and won narrowly at that. The Hagler fight to me is not a carreer defining fight. Although it showed what kinda fighter and person he was. Good and Bad

Duran / Leonad 1 is he next best performance and he lost in that one. Great performance and is not lessened for it.

Hearns was a monster, and was beating Ray the entire fight, He just ran out of gas and Ray tagged him. But without question in showed his heart and will to fight and stayed up despite being hit with bombs. Hearns of course won the next time and showed he was a better boxer than Ray in both.

Rays win VS Hearns 1. Greatest victory
Ray VS Benitez is his next greatest win
Ray Vs Duran 1 Lossed but showed his skill and ability

The fouth spot to me is debatable, probably Hagler although I think he lost

My thoughts exactly...plus the Haglar fight should have happened a few years earlier.