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Old 12-13-2012, 06:43 AM   #1
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Default What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

A few examples:

-Vladimir Nikolaevich:

An olympic champion. 3X european champion. 3X champion of the USSR. Also honoured with the prestigious Soviet title "Master of Sport" (equivalent to induction into Hall of Fame) in 1956.

-Igor Vysotsky:

The man who had Teofilo Stevenson’s number! 185 fights, 161 victories, half of which ended early. Not only did he beat Stevenson twice he defeated a host of great americans like Tony Tubbs, Mitch Green, Greg Page etc

-Nikolai Korolev:

The Champ Who Couldn’t Fight Joe Louis! 4X Absolute Soviet Champion. 9X Champion of the USSR. Champion of the Socialist Olympics in Antwerp.

-Gennadi Ivanovich Shatkov:

217 bouts. 203 victories. Gold Medal at the 1956 Melbourne Games. European Champion twice. Champion of the USSR 3 times.

-Alexander “Miron” Miroshnichenko:

Alex won a bronze at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul Korea. Captured the world title twice. Was European champ twice. champion of the USSR three times. He stopped both Lennox Lewis and beat Riddick Bowe! (Arguably beat Bowe twice!)

-Igor Ruzhnikov:

“I had much tougher opponents than Roy Jones”. 185 bouts. 163 victories. World Champion 1989. European Champion 1989. Champion of the USSR 1989. Silver Medal USSR Championships. 3X Bronze Medal winner USSR Championships. Winner of the GoodWill Games in Moscow 1986 in which he defeated a young roy jones.

-Vyacheslav Lemeshev:

Olympic champion of the 1972 Munich games. In the USSR-USA Match Meet Vycheslav beat American Micheal Spinks too.

Imagine the recent generation of Eastern european HW's fighting in the 70's! The top 10! This first generation of fighters! It would be a very different picture! Im not just talking HW's either!

Would the US have been as dominant had the Soviets always fought in the pro ranks? Personally i think not! You only need to look at the likes of 5 time Gold medallist Oleg Saitov (Welterweight) Or the current Olympic great Vasyl Lomachenko (Lightweight/Featherweight) to see that!

Last edited by DREAMCATCHER; 12-14-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

Imagine if THE WORLD would have been allowed to fight... instead, what we have seen was just locals u.s.a. club fights, with only u.s.a. fighters fighting each other, whit their styles and their physical levels; but boxing have evolved even in the u.s.a., still: nowadays hw boxers like eddie chamber, chrys byrd, tony thompson, christobal arreola, would have DOMINATED the u.s.a. hw division (more like cruiserweight division, and even below sometimes) of the so-called-golden-age-for-nostalgic-politicals-reasons.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:13 AM   #3
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Originally Posted by RememberingC.S. View Post
Imagine if THE WORLD would have been allowed to fight... instead, what we have seen was just locals u.s.a. club fights, with only u.s.a. fighters fighting each other, whit their styles and their physical levels; but boxing have evolved even in the u.s.a., still: nowadays hw boxers like eddie chamber, chrys byrd, tony thompson, christobal arreola, would have DOMINATED the u.s.a. hw division (more like cruiserweight division, and even below sometimes) of the so-called-golden-age-for-nostalgic-politicals-reasons.
Take Ali and Fazier. Ali was nearly kayoed by Cooper who was around 185lbs! It was only skullduggery that saved him! Cooper would be a B level CW today! No dis-respect just telling it how it is! Ali also swears his trickiest ever fight was the 195lb German southpaw Karl Midenberger! Bugner easily went the distance with Ali too. In fact Ali was hospitalised following there fight whilst Bugner was doing laps in the hotel pool!

Frazier beat Bugner by a single point! Bugner is the only man remotely comparable to these eastern european HW's of today who fought back then! Difference is Bugner was feather-fisted and fought to survive rather than to win! Even then he easily went the distance with them! Alex Zolkin at his best would have beaten Bugner quite easily!

Norton? Norton was brutalised by 188lb Jose Luis Garcia! Garcia put the heavier Norton on the deck in the 1st round and staggered him in the 5th and 7th rounds. In the 8th, Garcia floored Norton again with 15 seconds left. He got up again, and Garcia put him down again just as the bell rang. Norton stumbled to his corner and collapsed. He couldn't even crawl back to his corner! Garcia wasn't even a noteable fighter! Both Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney put norton away in the 1st round - it was not a shock KO due to complacency like Lewis or WK suffered either but simply a defeat by a better boxer on the night! In truth i think Norton tends to get overrated because he was a stylistic nightmare for Muhammad Ali! Taking all that into consideration one has to assume that Norton would have struggled had he fought over the last 10 years and not in the 70's!

So the haters need not be so ****sure of the 60's and 70's greats IMO! Yes these European fighters have also lost too but any argument that they would not be able to compete in the golden era is just laughable on the evidence above because if Cooper/Mildenberger/Garcia and Bugner can give them fits then just ask yourself....

And in truth there have been some fine american fighters of recent years ...Byrd, Brock, Brewster, Rahman, Chambers, Thompson, Arreola, Mcline etc. They are just down played because they are playing second fiddle!

The four main protaganists battering the **** out of each other (As great as them fights were!) should not equate to supremacy over any fighter who came before or since! Im a fan of Big George and Frazier etc but they do get overrated...

Last edited by DREAMCATCHER; 12-13-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

What's the final word concerning Lomachenko, is this "AIBA pro" contract a done deal ?
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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What's the final word concerning Lomachenko, is this "AIBA pro" contract a done deal ?
I would like clarity on that too. Anyone?
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

Papp turned pro in 1957 when Lemeshev was 5 years old, they never fought. Lemeshev was one of those guys who hated training, was a notorious party guy and a big drinker. He won Olympic Gold in 1972 at age 20 and was retired in 1976 completely shot by age 24. In 1975 he was routinely getting knocked out cold during team sparring sessions by Riskiev and having to be dragged out the ring. In spite of this he still beat Michael Spinks in 1975 at the USSR-USA duels.

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What's the final word concerning Lomachenko, is this "AIBA pro" contract a done deal ?
They guys from Ukraine's Olympic team are fighting for the Ukraine Otamans this season. They're into week 4 this weekend but none of them have fought for Ukraine yet as they've been travelling all over and helping promote the sport since the Olympics without much time to train. They'll start fighting in 2013.

WSB has a youtube channel that they upload all the events on. Here's a good MW fight from week 1 if you want to see what WSB is like.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpDS31PgrNY[/ame]


On the one hand it kind of sucks but if they turned pro they would be fighting nobodies for a while anyways so fighting 5 and 7 rounds fights under pro rules in WSB is the same thing as a early pro career except they'll be fighting other world class opponents, world championship medal winners, olympic champions and medallists rather than some pro with a losing record.

Lomachenko is 24 so if he gets some experience in WSB then turns pro ready to fight top 30 guys right away it will work out fine imo. Usyk in my AV for example is going to fight at SHW (he won Olympic Gold at 201lbs) and the division has Dychko, Medzhidov, Hrgovic, Nistor, Yoka, Russo and a bunch of other world class guys. He'll be testing himself to see if he can be a true HW against much tougher opponents than he would in the first year or two had he just turned pro.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Originally Posted by DREAMCATCHER View Post
A few examples:

-Vladimir Nikolaevich:

An olympic champion. 3X european champion. 3X champion of the USSR. Also honoured with the prestigious Soviet title "Master of Sport" (equivalent to induction into Hall of Fame) in 1956.

-Igor Vysotsky:

The man who had Teofilo Stevenson’s number! 185 fights, 161 victories, half of which ended early. Not only did he beat Stevenson twice he defeated a host of great americans like Tony Tubbs, Mitch Green, Greg Page etc

-Nikolai Korolev:

The Champ Who Couldn’t Fight Joe Louis! 4X Absolute Soviet Champion. 9X Champion of the USSR. Champion of the Socialist Olympics in Antwerp.

-Gennadi Ivanovich:

217 bouts. 203 victories. Gold Medal at the 1956 Melbourne Games. European Champion twice. Champion of the USSR 3 times.

-Alexander “Miron” Miroshnichenko:

Alex won a bronze at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul Korea. Captured the world title twice. Was European champ twice. champion of the USSR three times. He stopped both Lennox Lewis and beat Riddick Bowe! (Arguably beat Bowe twice!)

-Igor Ruzhnikov:

“I had much tougher opponents than Roy Jones”. 185 bouts. 163 victories. World Champion 1989. European Champion 1989. Champion of the USSR 1989. Silver Medal USSR Championships. 3X Bronze Medal winner USSR Championships. Winner of the GoodWill Games in Moscow 1986 in which he defeated a young roy jones.

-Vyacheslav Lemeshev:

Olympic champion of the 1972 Munich games. Beat the great laszlo papp. In the USSR-USA Match Meet Vycheslav beat American Micheal Spinks too.

Imagine the recent generation of Eastern european HW's fighting in the 70's! The top 10! This first generation of fighters! It would be a very different picture! Im not just talking HW's either!

Would the US have been as dominant had the Soviets always fought in the pro ranks? Personally i think not! You only need to look at the likes of 5 time Gold medallist Oleg Saitov (Welterweight) Or the current Olympic great Vasyl Lomachenko (Lightweight/Featherweight) to see that!
Who is Vladimir Nikolaevich and Gennadi Ivanovich? Those are not their last names and my memory is too shit to figure out.

Also, Master of Sports is not equivalent to induction into hall of fame - it's a title you get for winning a certain level (quite specifically defined) of tornament. I think ZMS (Honoured Master of Sports) is the word your're looking for. They give it to guys who've one the olympics, or multiple world championships (don't remember the exact requirement to get this).

Mirosnichenko did turn pro and Maskaev ended his career. Lemeshev could have done more had he had the discipline. He wasted his enormous potential.

Korolev was the highest potential heavy from USSR. He would have been a terrific pro.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Who is Vladimir Nikolaevich and Gennadi Ivanovich? Those are not their last names and my memory is too shit to figure out.

Also, Master of Sports is not equivalent to induction into hall of fame - it's a title you get for winning a certain level (quite specifically defined) of tornament. I think ZMS (Honoured Master of Sports) is the word your're looking for. They give it to guys who've one the olympics, or multiple world championships (don't remember the exact requirement to get this).

Mirosnichenko did turn pro and Maskaev ended his career. Lemeshev could have done more had he had the discipline. He wasted his enormous potential.

Korolev was the highest potential heavy from USSR. He would have been a terrific pro.
Doesnt even know enough so he can copy and paste correctly. The Gennady hes eluding to is Shatkov, very good MW but behind Popenchenko, Lagutin, Ageev for the 50's and 60's MW's imo
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Doesnt even know enough so he can copy and paste correctly. The Gennady hes eluding to is Shatkov, very good MW but behind Popenchenko, Lagutin, Ageev for the 50's and 60's MW's imo
Yep - Shatkov is awesome, but agre with your rating. Who is Vladimir Nikolaevich?
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Yep - Shatkov is awesome, but agre with your rating. Who is Vladimir Nikolaevich?
Yengibaryan i assume

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Old 12-14-2012, 09:12 AM   #11
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Yep - Shatkov is awesome, but agre with your rating. Who is Vladimir Nikolaevich?
Vladimir Nikolaevich Yengibaryan.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Originally Posted by avk47 View Post
Who is Vladimir Nikolaevich and Gennadi Ivanovich? Those are not their last names and my memory is too shit to figure out.
Gennadi Ivanovich Shatkov.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

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Doesnt even know enough so he can copy and paste correctly. The Gennady hes eluding to is Shatkov, very good MW but behind Popenchenko, Lagutin, Ageev for the 50's and 60's MW's imo
Quote:
Papp turned pro in 1957 when Lemeshev was 5 years old, they never fought.
I stand corrected. It was pietrzykowski (The guy Ali beat) who defeated papp at the tail end of his career. They fought x3 and Papp defeated him twice i believe.

I am very interested in the history of the Soviet and Cuban fighters and if i make the odd mistake in my posting then so be it.

I don't really have enough time to delve into the subject as i would like to so feel free to highlight certain things u disagree with, but don't make the mistake of thinking i am stupid!

Thankyou for your post.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

Heres Ring Magazines top 10 greatest Olympic boxers, only 2 of them went pro. Would be interesting to see how these careers would have panned out...
1. Teofilo Stevenson
2. Laszlo Papp
3. Felix Savon
4. Boris Lagutin
5. Hector Vinent
6. Guillermo Rigondeaux
7. Oleg Saitov
8. Harry Mallin
9. Ariel Hernandez
10. Jerzy Kulej
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

Just because your a mid 20's early 30's yr old full grown man against teens winning Olympic gold medals dosn't translate to being heavyweight champ of the world. Just look at some of the former gold medalist who turned pro and never amounted to anything.
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