Classic James Toney stuff from 1993 haha

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Depends on how he'd approach a fight against Toney. For starters, Toney wouldn't bring the pressure that Benn did,

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Benn was not putting Eubank under pressure during their rematch. He was trying to outbox Eubank in the middle of the ring. It was Eubank's sloppy footwork that caused him to fall
You clearly have not watched that fight

Originally Posted by knockout artist

and he'd be wary of his counter punching, as opposed to Collins and Calzaghe who weren't regarded as counter punchers

Collins was primarily a counter puncher, which tells me how many fights of Collins you have actually watched.

During his first fight with Eubank he took the center of the ring drew leads from Eubank and counter-punched. Eubank never looked good against counter-punchers. In fact his record should be 0-3 against them which tells you how well he would of done against Toney

Originally Posted by knockout artist

(though Calzaghe developed that skill later in his career).

Calzaghe was not a counter puncher

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney as a SMW from the fight with Roy - clearly carrying excess fat

That's just plain stupid. That picture is what Toney looked like after he had put on 17 lbs of water weight. This is what he looked like before he rehydrated using a IV drip
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Originally Posted by knockout artist

Mccallum won the first 5 rounds easy, as Collins was getting picked off with ease. When Collins became aggressive and a little reckless, he pressured Mike and won rounds

point 1: You haven't watched any of Collins fight, which is why you didn't know he was a counter puncher
point 2: That's one of my previous posts which you have just reworded

Originally Posted by knockout artist

I agree Johnson was better, but Collins gave him a hard fight, it was close certainly to an extent. You said Tiberi was the same level as Collins, I disagree

How can you when you haven't even watched any of Collins fights?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

True, but starting at MW and then ending up at LHW isn't the same as starting at LHW

Eubank moved up just fine. You do know he had around 4 fights at that weight, right? Griffin at the end of the day was a counter-puncher, better than Collins and Schommer.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

That was a close fight, but not a good example. It's pretty widely accepted that JMM won, I had him winning 115-113 when I watched it, though I've seen people's scorecards that have JMM winning 117-111, a few had it for Pac.

No, it wasn't. Jmm should of won by a 8-4 type decision

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Why would I have a Toney-Thadzi scorecard with me now.

You haven't watched that fight. You have just gone onto boxrec and seen the official decision. The fact that you are unable to show any evidence that you have watched that fight tells me all I need to know.

My scorecard

Round Toney Thadzi
1 10 9
2 10 9
3 10 9
4 10 10
5 10 9
6 9 10
7 10 10
8 10 9
9 9 10
10 10 9
11 9 10
12 9 10

Total 116-114 Toney

Originally Posted by knockout artist

At the end of the day, it was a close fight, certainly not a robbery and not many argue that Thadzi didn't deserve it. It is what it is.

Who cares what other people think? Either you have your own opinion on the fight or you do not.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

At the end of the day, Toney had no business losing to him. It would be the equivalent of Mayweather losing to someone like Matthew Hatton

All fighters who fight a lot turn in lacklustre performances from time to time. At the end of the day he got outworked, not out-boxed. Tiberi was offered an immediate rematch and he chose to retire instead.

Mayweather lost the first Castillo fight

Originally Posted by knockout artist

True, Eubank-Schommer was embarrassing, Eubank had no business losing to him either.

Eubank got out-boxed by Schommer, not outworked which is very different from what happened to Toney. This tells us that Schommer had better skills than Eubank. It should be pointed out that Eubank never fought let alone beat a top fighter with an unconventional style. Hence the fact he missed the following: Nunn, R.Johnson, Jones, Toney, McCallum, Kalamby, Graham and Liles.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney called Eubank out when they were at SMW, not MW. They would have fought at SMW. Not really sure how much clearer I can make that for you?

Before you claimed that Toney was not as his best at smw. I responded to your post and now you are trying to distance yourself from it? The fact is that at smw Toney was:
-Ranked no 1 by the Ring, above Eubank
-Made the p4p top ten, which meant he was widely considered to be elite
-Regularly turned in dominant performances

None of the above ever applied to Eubank at smw

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Styles make fights

The fact that a lot of C+ fighters had the style to give Eubank fits tells you a lot about him. He should of lost the following fights: Benn II, Sherry, Thornton and Schommer. Watson was clearly the better fighter during their rematch

Originally Posted by knockout artist

I know Eubank struggled with Collins, but Collins brought non stop pressure

NO
Collins stayed in the middle of the ring and counter-punched. He scored with jabs and right hand leads. Stepped out of range to avoid Eubank's lunging attacks, then stepped into range and landed right hand counters
What fight were you watching?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

- Toney was more skilled and didn't fight anything like that - which is what would suit Eubank more

You obviously have not watched Toney-McCallum I
Collins - Eubank I

Offense:
Collins: Jabbed and scored with right hand crosses
Toney: Used the same offense against McCallum I

Defense:
Collins: Stepped out of range to avoid Eubank telegraphed right hand leads then stepped into range and countered.
Toney: Shouldered rolled then came back with right hand counters

If you want to know how Toney-Eubank plays out all you have to do is watch Collins-Eubank I. The fact that Eubank ducked Toney at smw tells you that Eubank himself did not believe he could win such a fight

Toney wide UD

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Eubank was never stopped on body shots - Toney isn't stopping Eubank, deal with it.

This is your previous post

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Toney would be able to find Eubank, but he wouldn't be able to hurt and vice versa.

You claim that Toney can't hurt Eubank and now you try to turn it mid argument to Toney not being able to stop Eubank.

[general zod]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

zzz...

Great response

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Priceless!
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Holyfield lands a cracking counter and puts Tyson down.

I said that you have not watched that fight. It's obvious by your lack of knowledge of the fight. So you go and watch a highlight of the fight. Proving my point all along.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Holyfield did not have faster hands.

I never said he did. I said their hand-speed was about the same

Originally Posted by knockout artist

He had a great strategy of timing Tyson on the way in with right hands and then tieing up, and countering Tyson's left hooks throughout the fight.

What does that mean?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

I posted up a video that shows Griffin landing counter punches.

Then surely you can now tell me the counters Griffin was landing and what punches of Jones Griffin was countering?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

I don't remember every minute of the fight, do you? What a silly thing to say

Of course I do.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

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Further to that, watch the video I posted. Don't be disingenuous.

So let me get this right. I asked you what punches of Jones Griffin was countering and your response is to:
- Post up a vid of Jones-Griffin I, with a vague description
-Post up an excerpt from Griffin saying he was counter punching?

Originally Posted by knockout artist

No, you considered it wrong

Let me get this right.
Calzaghe throws a bunch of amateurish slaps which Hopkins evades. Before Calzaghe can initiate another attack Hopkins leads with a headbutt then follows through with a right hook. That's what you consider to be counter-punching?

[Uncle Rico]

Classic. There should be a little extra where an upset Eubank addresses Toney's comments about his mother.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

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Benn was not putting Eubank under pressure during their rematch. He was trying to outbox Eubank in the middle of the ring. It was Eubank's sloppy footwork that caused him to fall

I was referring more so to their first encounter - Where Benn hurt Eubank with body shots in rounds 5-7 and actually staggered Eubank at one point. The second didn't have nearly the same pace or ferociousness

You clearly have not watched that fight

Are you ok? I think you've repeated yourself now 150000 times with this same tired comment.

Collins was primarily a counter puncher, which tells me how many fights of Collins you have actually watched.

During his first fight with Eubank he took the center of the ring drew leads from Eubank and counter-punched. Eubank never looked good against counter-punchers. In fact his record should be 0-3 against them which tells you how well he would of done against Toney

I take it you've never seen Collins-Eubank 2

Calzaghe was not a counter puncher

Never said he was, but he developed his counter punching and became good at it

That's just plain stupid. That picture is what Toney looked like after he had put on 17 lbs of water weight. This is what he looked like before he rehydrated using a IV drip
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Jones rehydrated as well, and he didn't have excess fat around his stomach. All fighters do, Julio Chavez Jr rehydrates 20+ pounds and he doesn't come into the ring with a stomach like Toney's. Peak Toney was of course at MW, but he was more comfortable at LHW than at SMW where he could make the divisional limit more easily

point 1:

You haven't watched any of Collins fight, which is why you didn't know he was a counter puncher

No, it's you that hasn't seen Collins fight. Go watch Collins-Mccallum, go watch Collins-Eubank 2.

point 2:

That's one of my previous posts which you have just reworded

Pathetic. Stop debating like a child

How can you when you haven't even watched any of Collins fights?

Once again, childish comment

Eubank moved up just fine. You do know he had around 4 fights at that weight, right? Griffin at the end of the day was a counter-puncher, better than Collins and Schommer.

starting at MW and ending up at LHW isn't the same as starting at LHW. Ask anyone

No, it wasn't. Jmm should of won by a 8-4 type decision

You haven't watched that fight. You have just gone onto boxrec and seen the official decision. The fact that you are unable to show any evidence that you have watched that fight tells me all I need to know.

My scorecard

Round Toney Thadzi
1 10 9
2 10 9
3 10 9
4 10 10
5 10 9
6 9 10
7 10 10
8 10 9
9 9 10
10 10 9
11 9 10
12 9 10

Total 116-114 Toney

You have two 10-10 rounds?

Ahh, the boxrec defence, original. A nice cop out because you have nothing else to say.

Go on then, run me through rounds 11 and 12, how did Thadzi close the distance against Toney? Finally, what did Freddie Roach say to Toney between rounds after round 10 and 11? If you've seen it, you'll know. You refuse to accept Toney lost because you are a fanboy

Who cares what other people think? Either you have your own opinion on the fight or you do not.

Many fights are subjective, opinions are important in close fights. Toney should not have gone life and death with a guy like Drake Thadzi, only you seem to argue that it wasn't a close fight, I wonder why

All fighters who fight a lot turn in lacklustre performances from time to time. At the end of the day he got outworked, not out-boxed. Tiberi was offered an immediate rematch and he chose to retire instead.

Excuses. Tiberi retired because he was disgusted at the robbery. But a rematch wouldn't take away what happened in the first fight.

Mayweather lost the first Castillo fight

Scorecard?

Eubank got out-boxed by Schommer, not outworked which is very different from what happened to Toney. This tells us that Schommer had better skills than Eubank. It should be pointed out that Eubank never fought let alone beat a top fighter with an unconventional style. Hence the fact he missed the following: Nunn, R.Johnson, Jones, Toney, McCallum, Kalamby, Graham and Liles.

You have an agenda against Eubank.

Before you claimed that Toney was not as his best at smw. I responded to your post and now you are trying to distance yourself from it? The fact is that at smw Toney was:

Toney was at his best at MW

-Ranked no 1 by the Ring, above Eubank

-Made the p4p top ten, which meant he was widely considered to be elite

-Regularly turned in dominant performances

All true, but still, styles make fights and you never know what can happen. I personally can see Eubank taking a close decision. I saw posts from silencer and bailey which highlighted the 'top opposition' Toney turned in dominant performances against after winning the title from Barkley, which puts it all into perspective.

[quote]The fact that a lot of C+ fighters had the style to give Eubank fits tells you a lot about him. He should of lost the following fights: Benn II, Sherry, Thornton and Schommer. Watson was clearly the better fighter during their rematch

NO

Collins stayed in the middle of the ring and counter-punched. He scored with jabs and right hand leads. Stepped out of range to avoid Eubank's lunging attacks, then stepped into range and landed right hand counters

What fight were you watching?

Go watch Collins-Eubank 2

You obviously have not watched Toney-McCallum I

Oh the irony you seem to reference Eubank-Collins 1 alot, and just discard Collins-Eubank 2 as though it never happened.

Collins - Eubank I

zzz...

Ok Zod, out of curiosity, who would win between James Toney and Jake Lamotta at MW?

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

Great response

Better than yours

I said that you have not watched that fight. It's obvious by your lack of knowledge of the fight. So you go and watch a highlight of the fight. Proving my point all along.

Posting up a highlight = haven't seen the fight

Once again, great response

You posted up a highlight video of James Toney earlier, so by your logic = you've never seen James Toney fight

I never said he did. I said their hand-speed was about the same

You're tripping up all over yourself - You said counter punchers have to be faster - now you concede that Holyfield was able to counter Tyson even though he was no quicker

You said

Originally Posted by general zod

Toney takes the lead:
Toney had much better handspeed and reflexes than Eubank. So its going to be hard for Eubank to find opening for counters. To be effective as a counter puncher you really need to have a speed advantage over your opponent, something which Eubank does not have in this h2h fight.

If Eubank cant even beat a limited fighter like Collins than there is no way he beats someone like Toney
Toney wide ud

general zod on queer street

What does that mean?

think about it really really hard

Then surely you can now tell me the counters Griffin was landing and what punches of Jones Griffin was countering?

Go watch round 8, when Jones scored the KD in round 7, he went in for the kill in round 8, in particularly Griffin was able to evade and counter Jones lead right hands and lunging left hooks. I felt Griffin won round 8 after almost getting stopped in round 7. Though I feel Jones had truly got to him in round 9

Of course I do.

Griffin hit Jones and staggered him with a left hand, what round did that happen in and what did Jones do after getting caught?

So let me get this right. I asked you what punches of Jones Griffin was countering and your response is to:
- Post up a vid of Jones-Griffin I, with a vague description
-Post up an excerpt from Griffin saying he was counter punching?

Better than describing it myself, I provide a video. You were left with egg on your face, and now you're debating like a child. Also you have Griffin describing how he fought, where he talks about how he counter punched. But nope, the video of the fight, and one of the combatants describing it still isnt' right.

If it doesn't suit zod's agenda, it has to be wrong

Let me get this right.
Calzaghe throws a bunch of amateurish slaps which Hopkins evades. Before Calzaghe can initiate another attack Hopkins leads with a headbutt then follows through with a right hook. That's what you consider to be counter-punching?

You clearly don't know what counter punching is do you

[Loudon]

I love these back and forth debates between you two.

[DaveyboyEssexUK]

Ha ha Toney fanboys are worse than Jones jr`s. How anybody can think Toney was levels above Eubank is just absurd

[DaveyboyEssexUK]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Better than yours




Posting up a highlight = haven't seen the fight

Once again, great response

You posted up a highlight video of James Toney earlier, so by your logic = you've never seen James Toney fight




You're tripping up all over yourself - You said counter punchers have to be faster - now you concede that Holyfield was able to counter Tyson even though he was no quicker

You said



general zod on queer street




think about it really really hard



Go watch round 8, when Jones scored the KD in round 7, he went in for the kill in round 8, in particularly Griffin was able to evade and counter Jones lead right hands and lunging left hooks. I felt Griffin won round 8 after almost getting stopped in round 7. Though I feel Jones had truly got to him in round 9



Griffin hit Jones and staggered him with a left hook, what round did that happen in and what did Jones do after getting caught?





Better than describing it myself, I provide a video. You were left with egg on your face, and now you're debating like a child. Also you have Griffin describing how he fought, where he talks about how he counter punched. But nope, the video of the fight, and one of the combatants describing it still isnt' right.

If it doesn't suit zod's agenda, it has to be wrong





You clearly don't know what counter punching is do you

Yup mate, zoddy obviously hasnt watched the benn- eubank fights benn pushed eubank in the 1st fight and had him hurt, 2nd fight was completly different.

Toney certainly would`nt have put the pressure Benn did in his 1st fight with eubank, i actually think eubank would have frustrated Toney with his style

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by DaveyboyEssexUK

Ha ha Toney fanboys are worse than Jones jr`s. How anybody can think Toney was levels above Eubank is just absurd

Originally Posted by DaveyboyEssexUK

Yup mate, zoddy obviously hasnt watched the benn- eubank fights benn pushed eubank in the 1st fight and had him hurt, 2nd fight was completly different.

Toney certainly would`nt have put the pressure Benn did in his 1st fight with eubank, i actually think eubank would have frustrated Toney with his style

Completely agree mate

Zod picks which fights suit his agenda, I mention Benn pressuring Eubank and he talks about Benn-Eubank 2, and completely forgets Benn-Eubank one where Benn came out of the blocks like a mini Mike Tyson and they exchanged power punches

He also neglects Collins-Eubank 2 where Collins put the pressure on and set a pace that Eubank was uncomfortable with

Toney would be the favourite against Eubank, and could well win, I don't argue with that, but Eubank is in there with a chance. He had an awkward style that would frustrate Toney, especially with Eubank being so adept on the backfoot, and Toney struggling with fighters who gave him movement like Jones and Nunn

zod has an agenda which is why he's taken it so personally, hence he makes comments like this

Originally Posted by general zod

Eubank got out-boxed by Schommer, not outworked which is very different from what happened to Toney. This tells us that Schommer had better skills than Eubank

Whilst he completely denies that Toney lost to lesser fighters in Tiberi and Thadzi

Originally Posted by JPV

It's not being a fan boy. It's just knowing the facts.

Eubank, as much as I love him, is a poor man's James Toney. None of his victories tell you anything about this fight because Toney is more like him (a better version of him) than any of Eubank's actual opponents. How do you beat a better version of yourself? You don't.

You don't think Eubank could frustrate Toney?

[DaveyboyEssexUK]

Originally Posted by JPV

It's not being a fan boy. It's just knowing the facts.

Eubank, as much as I love him, is a poor man's James Toney. None of his victories tell you anything about this fight because Toney is more like him (a better version of him) than any of Eubank's actual opponents. How do you beat a better version of yourself? You don't.

Give over Eubank sly movement would have had toney pissed off, Toney is not a better version there are differences between them that Toney fanboys conveniently ignore. eubanks movementwas better than Toneys. Toneys style would not have bothered eubank.

The way to beat Eubank was pressure and more pressure thats not toney at all. The blue print was set by Watson

[Imperial1]

[DaveyboyEssexUK]

Sometimes i do wonder about Zoddy , he`s probably a Toney fanboy cannibal who sends monthly requests to toney to cut his dick off and send it to him so he can have it on a spit roast for lunch....

[Slyk]

Toney beats Eubank, easier than people think.

Benn? Lol...

[bailey]

Thought I would post it again

Truly classic

There was Eubank and Benn preparing for one of the most relevant SMW fights in history and a big unification fight, whilst Toney is preparing for the legendary Pranther .
Whilst Eubank and Benn fought some of the best SMWs that were around, look at the level Toney was fighting at when SMW champ

1993 he wins the title from iran barkley a fighter who years earlier was blown away by nigel benn in 1 round and pummelled to a loss by a shot roberto duran barkley went onto lose 11 out of 25 fights following this fight and never beat anyone who was remotely good in doing so,the guy was so desperate he was even plying his trade as a HW in the late 90's against the likes of berbick and they say this era is a joke

govonor chambers a guy with a career record of 9 wins 7 losses, all 3 fights prior to toney were ko losses!

ricky thomas: won 11 lost 14,the 4 fights he had prior to toney all losses!

glenn thomas:won 29 lost 8, lost to roy jones prior to toney and finished his career with a first round ko loss to jeff lacy.

danny garcia: won 30 lost 22, was coming off losses to chris pyatt (a steve collins victim) lamar parks etc

larry prather: won 19 lost 24,lost his last 5 fights prior to the toney fight even losing to nicky piper

tony thornton: won 37 lost 7,lost to chris eubank a year earlier.

anthony hembrick: won 31 lost 8,lost to maske prior to toney and orlin norris a year earlier.

tim littles: won 27 lost 3,maybe one of his better wins,had fought mainly bums with the exception of a close UD over frankie liles,went onto lose to frankie liles in a 2nd contest following the toney fight.

vinsom durham: won 21 lost 37 enough said.

charles williams: won 37 lost 7 drew 3,lost to maske prior to toney.
(this post was improvised from ESB great Silencer, on one of his great threads)and finally the Jones fight and, That was Jones big SMW victory where Toney was alledgedly weight weakend, other than that Jones didnt do much at SMW.

Eubank and Benn though had some good genuine SMW victories

Benn beat Wharton, McClellan, Nardiello, Galvano and drew with Eubank

Eubank beat Watson, Rocchigiani, Wharton, Holmes and drew with Benn.

Eubank and Benn were fighting at a much higher level at SMW.
Toney hid from those guys

Enjoy