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Old 12-14-2012, 02:01 AM   #1
jan_fan
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Default I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

First of all, JMM deserves a full-credit of beating Pac and it's all in their 4 fights TBH.

Pac won IMO in the 1st fight based on points only, but tactically JMM beat him as well in there.

Second, I couldn't believe how alot of fans aren't seeing what's actually happening in all their fights. They keep saying "Pac walks on straight lines and has no head movement" (less significant) , "JMM is just faster and stronger" (hilarious), "JMM was countering an aggressive Pac" (too broad), "Pac was not in condition or JMM was on PEDs" (too far), or some would even say "Pac changed his religion that's why" (lol not connected already)

I'm saying this now cause I don't think there's any hope that Pac (including his team and his fans) would realize this and I'm starting to accept that JMM is a better man but let me say some few words now before I concede.

Here's why JMM would always beat Pac, tactically:

1.) JMM's Right Hand

Watch all 4 fights, you'll see that it has always been JMM best weapon against Pac, nothing else. Not his lead uppercut, not his left hook to the body but his right hand. And Pac is always stepping into JMM's right, his perfect bait on him.

Why it happens always?

Pac always move to JMM's right. He's trying to look for a perfect shot on JMM. He wants a good picture to throw his left hand but it's not gonna happen cause JMM knows it. JMM can throw his overhand right and hit Pac before Pac can even think of throwing his left cause Pac is initiating and all JMM needed to do is to wait when Pac steps in. Pac's not realizing that JMM is 2 steps ahead on him cause Pac needs to plant his feet first before he lounges and all JMM need to do is throw his right. In fact, JMM can still do a step-in himself and throw his right before Pac can even start to lounge. That's how it makes JMM look faster and sharper. But it's not, it's a proper technique Pac never had any answer, nonetheless.

2.) The Clockwise Movement

If you want to know the reason why Pac always move to the Marquez bait, this is the thing. JMM was never scared of Pac, but his left has always intimidated him. In fact, this was the whole story of the tactic - TO NULLIFY PAC'S LEFT AT ALL COST. Now this is easier said than done. Many tried to nullify Pac's left, his left always landed. But in JMM, it was a different story. JMM never gives Pac a chance to have a good look for his left. He goes at a side-view stance making lesser angle for Pac's left to land. JMM makes it even worse by stepping his right foot backwards constantly making it a clockwise movement. The genius Pac follows JMM clockwise trying to land jackpot on his left. This is the main reason why Pac looks too WIDE to throw his straight LEFT on JMM. What's next comes JMM's flavored punches of the series which are the RIGHT overhand, RIGHT cross, RIGHT straight and RIGHT hook across the body. Perfect punches when Pac moves to JMM's RIGHT side. What's more funny is that Pac has constantly been getting hit by JMM's RIGHT, he knows JMM has been doing this all night long to him but after 4 fights, he still had no idea how or why it happened?

How the KO happened?

Pac has been following JMM's lure on all four fights. JMM has been landing his RIGHTS on him at his WILL and what does he need to KO Pac? - his POWER (C'mon this is no PED excuse anymore). Those two KD's, everybody should know those are powerful RIGHTS that hit Pac, there are no exceptions even Pac will go down with that. JMM already knew he's been landing at his will on Pac. All he needed to do was develop his POWER to really hurt Pac and just look for perfect timings, which is easy for JMM's part especially when he knew Pac was just gonna blindly deliver himself to JMM's right side.

Why Manny never learn?

For me, it's mainly because of his PRIDE. He doesn't accept that JMM has always had his numbers and that he's tactically losing to JMM all the time. By not accepting defeat, he's clearly not learning the mistakes he kept on repeating on his previous fights with JMM.

What Manny SHOULD have done?

It's just basic ----MOVE TO THE RIGHT----

When I say right, I mean for Pac's right side. When he does that, he's going towards JMM's left side which means he'll be moving COUNTER-CLOCKWISE and defy JMM's clockwise movement. In that way, he completely destroys his angle for his left hand, but on the bright side, he creates a better angle for his right hand to land. This time, Pac would have made it easier for him to land his RIGHT hook to the body, RIGHT hook across the head and also a JAB which Manny rarely used but quite effective on this approach. What even makes it better for him is that JMM will have a bad angle to throw his RIGHT hand on him (try to demonstrate it with a friend let him move to your left side let's how you do when you throw your right hand on him). JMM's lead uppercut would also get nullified when Pac's on his left side. The only thing that's left is JMM's left hook to the body which would also get nullified when Pac comes closer.

In this scenario, JMM would have had more difficult time to land especially his right hand to Pac and JMM would need to adjust.

Would JMM abandon his side-view stance? Let's see it happen

Would JMM still force his right hand to land on Pac?
Remember that when he moves counter-clockwise, he'll be moving himself nearer to Pac's addicted left hand. All Pac needs to do is be the Pac that he is and throw the straight left on JMM and we'll see a reversed position on the two. Pac, on that time, will have the upper hand as JMM steps to his left side.

Will JMM start to use his jab more frequently?
Really guys, JMM doesn't use this type of punch in the series of their fights. And by not jabbing, JMM was actually nullifying Pac to move to JMM's left side, forcing Pac to just move to his side (clockwise movement). I don't know if it was intentional for his part, but JMM actually gets the credit by not doing that.

What type of adjustments would JMM have had if Pac moves to the opposite side?
That I would like to see as well. The one thing I can assure you guys is that we will have a completely different picture of the fight when that happens.

Can Pac beat JMM? Yes, he can. But defenitely not with the way he fought JMM in their last 4 fights. Cause I can assure JMM will keep on beating him the same way. Just a little adjustment on his gameplan and you'll see adifferent picture of the fight.

Let Marquez Adjust - Pac has been solving the puzzle on all their 4 fights. JMM only used one tactic but Pac never resolved it. Now let's see Marquez adjust and see how he would handle it.

Lastly, I'm just a regular boxing fan like a lot of you guys in here so I'm not pretending to be an expert analyst or something. I'm just saying it's Pac's corner-men's job to analyze this and find a way for this stuff. They should know better than me so they should be held responsible (including Pac) for the output that happened in all those fights.

The rest I leave to you guys. I just made my point on this. That's all
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

Pardon me if I just made this post too long. But everything should have been said precisely
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

Pac already does try to move to the right in order to step side-wards and open up the angle for his left hand, it's just that Marquez can ready his feints and pivot in-range so that he gets superior positioning by the time he advances. Manny being the aggressor and initiating gives JMM the split second needed to anticipate and turn, subsequently timing him. He offered much less lateral movement in the fourth fight, and combined with Manny's emphasis on feinting, Manny was able to attack from both sides at certain points (outside the lead foot towards JMM's left, or all the way outside towards the right). JMM was waiting for the right opportunities to land hard, and he took advantage once they came.

If Manny ever purposely turns towards JMM's right, it's usually to make space in the ring to then turn back the other way while throwing. Martinez does this a lot.

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I'd never go so far as to say one fighter could never beat another, but it doesn't look likely that Manny ever outboxes him or outfights him.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

@ Bogotazo

Nice analysis bro but Manny rarely moves to the right. And when Manny goes to the right he immediately goes back to the left, which only destroys the purpose capitalizing on it. C'mon, we all know that Manny has been entirely moving to JMM's strong spot. He should have adjusted to the right more frequently. I watched all 4 videos and I didn't see JMM doing good move whenever Manny is positioned to the right (not yet at least)
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

beat him twice already
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

Both great explanations, esp yours Bogo. But Jmm only being effective with the right not true. He's landed many left hooks to the head and body of Manny as well, perfectly gauging the distance and timing them.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:38 AM   #7
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by Bald_Toad View Post
beat him twice already
Watch all 4 fights and you'll see JMM schooling him the same way
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by jan_fan View Post
Watch all 4 fights and you'll see JMM schooling him the same way

tis really difficult for pac to convince others what with his non-conventional boxing style which does not favor many who prefer textbook-based boxing.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:01 AM   #9
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jan_fan View Post
@ Bogotazo

Nice analysis bro but Manny rarely moves to the right. And when Manny goes to the right he immediately goes back to the left, which only destroys the purpose capitalizing on it. C'mon, we all know that Manny has been entirely moving to JMM's strong spot. He should have adjusted to the right more frequently. I watched all 4 videos and I didn't see JMM doing good move whenever Manny is positioned to the right (not yet at least)
I won't quote your first post, but good analysis. However I will say that is still a very general analysis as to how righties and lefties should be fighting each other. I'm not really going to add much as I haven't analyzed the fights that in dept, but I can tell you that Marquez generally has the better foot positioning because he backing up, keeping light on his feet. Once Pacquiao commits to his jab coming forward Marquez steps to the outside and hits him with his counter right.

The main reason Marquez doesn't jab too much is that Pacquiao generally times his own counter hook. Also Marquez doesn't try to keep him at bay, he is trying to draw him in for counters. This actually why most people fail to actually "outbox" Pacquiao. There is no way you are not going to get hit against Pac. One of the smartest counter-punchers Marquez has taken a beat every time. Everyone who has tried to replicate his plan keep stepping back and standing straight but find themselves getting tagged. Marquez doesn't move back to move back, he is drawing Pac in and crouching low. Marquez also sets up patterns and switches them up to either bring up or down the guard. I haven't seen anyone replicate that.

I think the adjustments Pac made were correct. When you have equal dimensions or shorter you got use a lot of feints and head movement to draw out the counter and then come back with your own counters which Pac did beautifully several times. I would however add, which he did a little bit is a bit more side to side foot work. I think he still comes to straight forward where as I think cutting off the ring and getting Marquez to the ropes would be more in his favor. I think it's the only way he can draw it back into a firefight like the 1st and 2nd bouts.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by HellSpawn86 View Post
I won't quote your first post, but good analysis. However I will say that is still a very general analysis as to how righties and lefties should be fighting each other. I'm not really going to add much as I haven't analyzed the fights that in dept, but I can tell you that Marquez generally has the better foot positioning because he backing up, keeping light on his feet. Once Pacquiao commits to his jab coming forward Marquez steps to the outside and hits him with his counter right.

The main reason Marquez doesn't jab too much is that Pacquiao generally times his own counter hook. Also Marquez doesn't try to keep him at bay, he is trying to draw him in for counters. This actually why most people fail to actually "outbox" Pacquiao. There is no way you are not going to get hit against Pac. One of the smartest counter-punchers Marquez has taken a beat every time. Everyone who has tried to replicate his plan keep stepping back and standing straight but find themselves getting tagged. Marquez doesn't move back to move back, he is drawing Pac in and crouching low. Marquez also sets up patterns and switches them up to either bring up or down the guard. I haven't seen anyone replicate that.

I think the adjustments Pac made were correct. When you have equal dimensions or shorter you got use a lot of feints and head movement to draw out the counter and then come back with your own counters which Pac did beautifully several times. I would however add, which he did a little bit is a bit more side to side foot work. I think he still comes to straight forward where as I think cutting off the ring and getting Marquez to the ropes would be more in his favor. I think it's the only way he can draw it back into a firefight like the 1st and 2nd bouts.
Nice analysis too. It is also good to feint on JMM's counter when he approaches him, but still, he's moving the JMM's strong side. When he approaches on there, he's too much extending himself leaving his face open to JMM's counter right. JMM doesn't need to extend his arms to KO Pac because Pac's face was there to meet his fists.

As I said again, moving to the right would have been the easier way for Pac's part. What he was doing to JMM was the hard way.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:22 AM   #11
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by jan_fan View Post
Nice analysis too. It is also good to feint on JMM's counter when he approaches him, but still, he's moving the JMM's strong side. When he approaches on there, he's too much extending himself leaving his face open to JMM's counter right. JMM doesn't need to extend his arms to KO Pac because Pac's face was there to meet his fists.

As I said again, moving to the right would have been the easier way for Pac's part. What he was doing to JMM was the hard way.
Pac does have a nasty habit of moving to his left, but he likes to fight that way. You don't necessarily have to move to your right to take away the right hand. It's a trick pacquiao uses moving that way to bait your right hand, then he pivots farther over to the side and comes back with his own left hand / combination. Check out the Margarito fight and he does it all night.

Here's a gif:

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Another

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Pac tends to move to his right more when he's got a more stationary or forward moving opponent. He's great a shifting / turning them, and keeping them off balance - as he did to De La Hoya, Cotto, Margarito, etc.



To the topic - I don't agree that he cant ever beat Marquez that's silly. He already did - multiple times even, depending on who you talk to. And he was clearly winning this last one until he got caught. Marquez does have his number, and he's a nightmare for Pac stylistically ; but he doesn't always beat him. If he it were that way, these guys wouldn't make for such a competitive fight.

Last edited by Jak Boxer; 12-14-2012 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:28 AM   #12
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by jan_fan View Post
@ Bogotazo

Nice analysis bro but Manny rarely moves to the right. And when Manny goes to the right he immediately goes back to the left, which only destroys the purpose capitalizing on it. C'mon, we all know that Manny has been entirely moving to JMM's strong spot. He should have adjusted to the right more frequently. I watched all 4 videos and I didn't see JMM doing good move whenever Manny is positioned to the right (not yet at least)
I disagree. Manny doesn't naturally move that way all the time. He always tries to step rightward when throwing, he's done it to pretty much all of his opponents. It's just that as a matador, JMM takes away the angle by anticipating and stepping leftwards before Manny gets to him. You watched all four fights and didn't see JMM pivot and spin as Manny comes in?

Any time a fighter throws without stepping to Manny's left, like Cotto and JMM whenever they stepped in straight with their jab, Manny takes advantage and steps rightward to get the angle for his left.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak Boxer View Post
Pac does have a nasty habit of moving to his left, but he likes to fight that way. You don't necessarily have to move to your right to take away the right hand. It's a trick pacquiao uses moving that way to bait your right hand, then he pivots farther over to the side and comes back with his own left hand / combination. Check out the Margarito fight and he does it all night.

Here's a gif:

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See how he baits the right hand in and counters.

Pac tends to move to his right more when he's got a more stationary or forward moving opponent. He's great a shifting / turning them, and keeping them off balance - as he did to De La Hoya, Cotto, Margarito, etc.



To the topic - I don't agree that he cant ever beat Marquez that's silly. He already did - multiple times even, depending on who you talk to. And he was clearly winning this last one until he got caught. Marquez does have his number, and he's a nightmare for Pac stylistically ; but he doesn't always beat him. If he it were that way, these guys wouldn't make for such a great fight.
Walking a fighter into the left by going all the way to their right is another way to catch an opponent; the right isn't really at an angle to come out with any power. The opposite is true for the reverse situation and a right hand, obviously.

I remember Roach saying sometime after the move to 147 or 140 that Manny hopped to the left and tapped him on the shoulder, and a lightbulb went off, so they started incorporating attacking from both sides more often.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:29 AM   #13
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by HellSpawn86 View Post
I won't quote your first post, but good analysis. However I will say that is still a very general analysis as to how righties and lefties should be fighting each other. I'm not really going to add much as I haven't analyzed the fights that in dept, but I can tell you that Marquez generally has the better foot positioning because he backing up, keeping light on his feet. Once Pacquiao commits to his jab coming forward Marquez steps to the outside and hits him with his counter right.

The main reason Marquez doesn't jab too much is that Pacquiao generally times his own counter hook. Also Marquez doesn't try to keep him at bay, he is trying to draw him in for counters. This actually why most people fail to actually "outbox" Pacquiao. There is no way you are not going to get hit against Pac. One of the smartest counter-punchers Marquez has taken a beat every time. Everyone who has tried to replicate his plan keep stepping back and standing straight but find themselves getting tagged. Marquez doesn't move back to move back, he is drawing Pac in and crouching low. Marquez also sets up patterns and switches them up to either bring up or down the guard. I haven't seen anyone replicate that.

I think the adjustments Pac made were correct. When you have equal dimensions or shorter you got use a lot of feints and head movement to draw out the counter and then come back with your own counters which Pac did beautifully several times. I would however add, which he did a little bit is a bit more side to side foot work. I think he still comes to straight forward where as I think cutting off the ring and getting Marquez to the ropes would be more in his favor. I think it's the only way he can draw it back into a firefight like the 1st and 2nd bouts.
Nice analysis too. It is also good to feint on JMM's counter when he approaches him, but still, he's moving the JMM's strong side. When he approaches on there, he's too much extending himself leaving his face open to JMM's counter right. JMM doesn't need to extend his arms to KO Pac because his face was there to meet his fists.

As I said again, moving to the right would have been the easier way for Pac's part. What he was doing to JMM the hard way.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

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Originally Posted by elchivito View Post
Both great explanations, esp yours Bogo. But Jmm only being effective with the right not true. He's landed many left hooks to the head and body of Manny as well, perfectly gauging the distance and timing them.

Not too mention that left uppercut, which Pac was eating up all night long in their 3rd fight.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

It's simple. Marquez is just a smarter fighter. As long as he's in top shape both mentally and physically he'll always find ways to adjust to Pacquiao no matter what Pac brings to the table. Obviously Pac will have his bright moments since he's a tremendous athlete but Marquez, as long as he can stay on his feet, will turn the tide when he's in trouble. Even though Pac has a better resume and is more accomplished career wise, JMM is better than him when they go head to head. It's incredible that in 4 wars and after being hurt so many times, Marquez has never clinched. Amazing man.
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