I'll explain in DETAILS why PAC would never beat JMM

[jan_fan]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

I disagree. Manny doesn't naturally move that way all the time. He always tries to step rightward when throwing, he's done it to pretty much all of his opponents. It's just that as a matador, JMM takes away the angle by anticipating and stepping leftwards before Manny gets to him. You watched all four fights and didn't see JMM pivot and spin as Manny comes in?

Any time a fighter throws without stepping to Manny's left, like Cotto and JMM whenever they stepped in straight with their jab, Manny takes advantage and steps rightward to get the angle for his left.

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4b37a32d.gif



Walking a fighter into the left by going all the way to their right is another way to catch an opponent; the right isn't really at an angle to come out with any power. The opposite is true for the reverse situation and a right hand, obviously.

I remember Roach saying sometime after the move to 147 or 140 that Manny hopped to the left and tapped him on the shoulder, and a lightbulb went off, so they started incorporating attacking from both sides more often.

That's what I've been seeing most of the time everytime Pac lounges to 1-2 punches to JMM. Why do you think I've opened-up the clockwise movement JMM was using? It's because he's baiting Pac to keep on stepping-in to his right so that he can throw his counter right on Pac.

What I'm saying is that Pac kept on following JMM clockwise. Why not move counter-clockwise and intercept JMM in his left side? Tell me what's wrong with that then?

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by jan_fan

That's what I've been seeing most of the time everytime Pac lounges to 1-2 punches to JMM. Why do you think I've opened-up the clockwise movement JMM was using? It's because he's baiting Pac to keep on stepping-in to his right so that he can throw his counter right on Pac.

What I'm saying is that Pac kept on following JMM clockwise. Why not move counter-clockwise and intercept JMM in his left side? Tell me what's wrong with that then?

You mean why didn't Manny step over? He had the disadvantage of always leading, allowing JMM to out-maneuver him every time he came forward. Manny stepped forward and counter-clockwise plenty of times, but by the time he landed, JMM circled clockwise again. JMM pivots too close to Manny for him to properly step over. Now, against Bradley, who was circling clockwise all night but too far out of range, Manny simply stepped over and found his angle almost at will. Bradleys right hand was largely missing that night for that reason.

[mrtony80]

Originally Posted by gyll

It's simple. Marquez is just a smarter fighter. As long as he's in top shape both mentally and physically he'll always find ways to adjust to Pacquiao no matter what Pac brings to the table. Obviously Pac will have his bright moments since he's a tremendous athlete but Marquez, as long as he can stay on his feet, will turn the tide when he's in trouble. Even though Pac has a better resume and is more accomplished career wise, JMM is better than him when they go head to head. It's incredible that in 4 wars and after being hurt so many times, Marquez has never clinched. Amazing man.

This, pretty much. Analyzing it, putting up graphics and gifs is always interesting, but it all boils down to the fact that JMM has two things it takes to trouble Pacquiao - smarts, and BALLS. He could have all the ring IQ in the world, but it definitely takes a fair about of courage to stay in the pocket and throw the counters Marquez throws, because a slight miscalculation, and Pac could counter right back.

[jan_fan]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

You mean why didn't Manny step over? He had the disadvantage of always leading, allowing JMM to out-maneuver him every time he came forward. Manny stepped forward and counter-clockwise plenty of times, but by the time he landed, JMM circled clockwise again. JMM pivots too close to Manny for him to properly step over. Now, against Bradley, who was circling clockwise all night but too far out of range, Manny simply stepped over and found his angle almost at will. Bradleys right hand was largely missing that night for that reason.

Dude, I don't know what you've been seeing to say Pac has been moving counter-clockwise plenty of times.

You seem to be good at showing gifs at their fights. Show me a gif where Manny's steps in to JMM's left side to throw right hooks to the head/body if you see some of it. Please.....

[bobotnaman]

Marquez has always been Pacquiao's kryptonite, their styles mesh together perfectly, except everytime they face Marquez seems to be constantly improving. i have it to 2-1-1 for Marquez (3 and 4)

[jan_fan]

Originally Posted by bobotnaman

Marquez has always been Pacquiao's kryptonite, their styles mesh together perfectly, except everytime they face Marquez seems to be constantly improving. i have it to 2-1-1 for Marquez (3 and 4)

Marquez has been doing the same tactic that Pac didn't overcome. That's the story of it.

[bobotnaman]

Originally Posted by jan_fan

Marquez has been doing the same tactic that Pac didn't overcome. That's the story of it.

or you could say, Pacquiao has been doing the same tactic that Marquez has overcome. That's the story of it.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by jan_fan

Dude, I don't know what you've been seeing to say Pac has been moving counter-clockwise plenty of times.

You seem to be good at showing gifs at their fights. Show me a gif where Manny's steps in to JMM's left side to throw right hooks to the head/body if you see some of it. Please.....

He's not consistently effective with it, but it's what he tries to do when throwing.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do61EjeftB4[/ame]

@ :40 secs:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7noSRAxOxe8[/ame]

@ :33 secs (steps counter-clockwise to set up body shot), 1:26-1:31, 1:49

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PN2Ck5liBs[/ame]

Most of them aren't right hooks because Manny doesn't sweep with his right hook, he plants himself to use it as a counter, or to finish up a combination.

@15:40, 17:08, 19:44, 21:23, 21:40 until the end of the round, along the ropes, Manny is constantly stepping his lead foot rightwards.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fj-3a4AO7g[/ame]

Pac may circle just out of range towards JMM's right, but again, lots of southpaws make space circling that way so that once they throw, they have room to circle back the other way while closing the distance.

[jan_fan]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

He's not consistently effective with it, but it's what he tries to do when throwing.

I didn't see anything in the video that makes Pac aggressive to JMM's left. All I saw Pac diverting lefts and move to the left side of JMM but there was no aggression seen on JMM's left side. The rest the those video, all I saw was Pac getting aggressive on JMM's strong side where he can easily plant right fists on Pac which makes my case stronger.

Again, I give JMM the credit for not letting Pac move to his right spot but it shouldn't have been the case for Pac. He didn't adjust well on JMM's gameplan.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by jan_fan

I didn't see anything in the video that makes Pac aggressive to JMM's left. All I saw Pac diverting lefts and move to the left side of JMM but there was no aggression seen on JMM's left side. The rest the those video, all I saw was Pac getting aggressive on JMM's strong side where he can easily plant right fists on Pac which makes my case stronger.

Again, I give JMM the credit for not letting Pac move to his right spot but it shouldn't have been the case for Pac. He didn't adjust well on JMM's gameplan.

What? Manny threw punches in nearly every example I gave you as he was stepping towards JMM's left. He landed in a good number of them. The first youtube video shows him landing a left and a right as he steps over to his right.

[PIPO23]

Marquez feet are always planted solid. Pacquiao is always in the air bouncing up and down.When they are throwing Marquez will have the edge as he is balanced and Pacquiao is always out of ctrl. He doesn't have an inside game either. Pacquiao always seems to be reaching in and can't find Marquez.JMM is good at not allowing Pac to close the gap the gap is widened everytime Pacquiao closes in. But this time Marquez was waiting for Manny to come in a fire a right down the pipe.

[PIPO23]

I think it's because of Manny's over eagerness and aggressiveness that got him into trouble. Pacquiao sniffs blood he is going for the kill.He had Marquez wounded and he went after him as usual. But sometimes he gets out of control, and get's complacent.Dare i say sloppy? Pacquiao is a great boxer.So fast and powerful but Marquez was waiting for Manny to open up and he got him.But that's Manny he is not your typical boxer that's defensive.He comes to fight do or die attitude.

Kudos to both.

[Beouche]

Never say never

Pacquiao was winning their fourth fight up til the stoppage, and was landing murderous shots. Juan's tough as nails but he couldn't have gone on eating those for much longer

[Miguel]

Marquez' style is a great counter to Pacquiao's...having a thread titled "Why Pacquiao will never beat him" when he has twice already (III was Marquez, but II I had him 1 point ahead also and I he got conned by the judge) is ridiculous considering many refs might have stopped the first fight in the first round, considering he got conned by the judge in the first fight and considering that his gameplan in IV was for the first time working 100%. He outlanded Marquez in every round, and his accuracy was better in EVERY round! This is unlike any of their previous fights so absolutely ridiculous to say Pacquiao can never beat him LOL

He landed more shots in round 4 and some people gave him that also, though many swung it to Marquez because of shock KO in round 3.

As the guy above says, Pacquiao's undoing was he saw Marquez weak, saw him struggling for breath - it's like people didn't even see round 5 and the first 2:59 of round 6 - Marquez was taking a beating, Pacquiao got reckless.

Had Pacquiao not been so overeager and just put that round in the bank Marquez would not have got that opportunity. Roach should have told Pacquiao to continue being careful after that big round 5 - Roach needs to rein in his fighter as Pacquiao always makes the same mistake.

He did it in the first fight, he lost rounds 3,4,5 and 6 of their first fight because he thought Marquez was hurt and went looking for the KO and that overly eager style is what marquez wants.

But tactically Pacquiao's movement in IV was finally getting the better of Marquez, just one moment of madness and Marquez punished him badly

[JohnnyDrama99]

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