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Old 12-18-2012, 04:29 PM   #31
JOSEY WALES
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No worries Tiger mate if you have any questions on Jimmy Wilde or Jim Driscoll ( Gem to the yanks ) please don't hesitate to ask here or via email I have studied Wildes career for a long time and whilst no expert I do know a tad about this amazing chap , Driscoll was a local hero here in Cardiff ( sort of akin to Darcy in mainland ) and point blank refused to rematch Abe Attel because he had promised the sisters at the Nazerth house orphanage a mile from my home that he would attend a fund raiser he had already promised to attend . Thousands lined the streets when he passed away , a poster here by the handle of gazs has in recent years reopened " Driscolls gym " above a local boozer off broadway ( the royal oak ) where Driscoll had his gym .
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:35 PM   #32
JOSEY WALES
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Just had a thought Tiger , another local fighter , The singing boxer Fred Dyer who fought ( and lost to Darcy twice ) may have visited your pops orphanage and he would have been well versed in the older methods Wilde and Driscoll were using around that era , ( maybe some food for thought and a further avenue for your research mate ) ?



TRY THIS LINK TIGER , Fred fought a few times down under .

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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Old 12-18-2012, 05:12 PM   #33
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A lots been said and wrote about the Method has taught by Palmer . But without wanting to get in a argument or sound like i'm slagging of Ambrose who was a great trainer with the runs on the board to prove it , I can think back to when that book was released in Aust , and one of the kids i trained at the time , came up to me and said , I did'nt know you trained with Palmer and Famechon ect ,,

Thats because i did'nt was my answer , his reply was i've just read the book the method , and you train us just like it says in that book .. My answer was i just train you the correct way i was trained with enthasis on not being hit , and i try to show the importance of correct footwork , balance and movement .

I told him i train you basic boxing, which is shown by thousands all around the world , I had never heard of the method , although i had obviously heard and knew about Ambrose being a great trainer.

He was suprised and said well most of whats in the book about the method you already told us .

So all in all , i think to believe that the so called method was something Ambrose invented , is pushing it a bit far , I believe Ambrose just taught proper skills , but was probably better at it than most , hence his brilliant record , that was amassed in a time when boxers fought and dodged know one , and it was tougher to win titles than what it is now .
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:34 PM   #34
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I think you make a decent point there Trumpy.

(but) Ambrose Palmer did not invent the Method, but I think he reinvented/rejuvenated it. He certainly did not write about it, or ever go to a technical boxing book that prescribed its use.

Larry Foley born in the mid 1850s ? took claim to the methodology called The Method, I believe. I dont think he invented it either....probably he just collected or collated moves and grooves that he had used, or seen other boxers use....then he focused on its methodology more than others and became renowned for its invention. Collating information from other boxers and their skills is not invention, it is research, or study. So lets say that Larry Foley researched the good skills required to box and presented them at some stage in his lifetime. What he presented, worked well.

As I said, Ambrose was taught The Method by his father. Ambrose taught the method, but obviously did not teach it the same as his father or the same as Larry Foley. Like any academic teacher, different teachers use their different diagnosis of skill performance, and teach skills to gain the best results. Ambrose's greater skill I witnessed, was the way he TAUGHT; he was a brilliant and highly credible teacher. I mentioned the way he silently gained attention, and modelled the right way to throw punches, to duck and catch.

He wasn't a qualified teacher, but used all of his experiences, attitudes and inventive ways to bring out the best in his boxers. His use of repetition of the exercise (ROTE skills) was highly effective/brilliant. Ambrose used inventive teaching skills to teach the method....I suppose in someway he re-invented/rejuvenated the method. Much of what he taught can be seen in his own actions when he fought.(referring to the videos of him on you-tube) The defensive stance, and defense stragies he employs as he is fighting his opponents is his established methodology.

Another interesting thing about Ambrose's gym and his method: many worn out fighters, sacked or flattened, entered his gym and he gave them a few more years in their sport (a sort of rebirth for them), mainly by teaching them how to not get hit, and to use punches that had embedded defense strategies.

Cheers mate.

Last edited by atigerofold; 12-18-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atigerofold View Post

1. to hit, and not be hit.


2. Q: so what mechanism do you build into the left jab.... Answer: you hop up, and your back foot is about one foot behind your left foot, and it is used as the power foot leverage for your left jab; defensively you've tucked your chin in behind your left shoulder, and you hold your right hand rigidly over your chin..... You deliver your left jab solidly and rapidly (never tokenly).

.

1. the exact first words my trainer said to me to begin my first lesson. "the art of boxing is to hit, and not be hit.."

2. basically what you have said is exaxtly how i was taught. as novices we would actually exchange jabs in rythum, catching and jabbing at the same time. it taught you to keep your chin down and use your right to proteet and cathc the opponents jab.

from another trainer, he showed me that as you delivered a jab (as above) you also ducked a little and to the right, which would slip any opponents jab, while transfering your weight onto your back foot, ready to cross with your right as your opponents jab went over your shoulder.

i dont believe in overcommiting with your jab, because if you miss, you are exposed to a counter right by an opponent, as you are coming forward and ofgf balance.

as you know, there are many types of jabs. i havent been to a lot of gyms to see different practices. but what you are describing is the way the now 80yo trainer taught me. the bloke that taught me to duck a little as i jabbed was perhaps 20 years younger than him. perhaps it was an evolvement over the years, as they had both been pros and trained in good gyms.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:03 PM   #36
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Good post Swingin !
..........................

You are so right with the statement that there are so many types of jabs...thrown in a huge variety of styles and ways.......as to overcommitting with the jab...it is essential that you never do.... and one's decision making is often the self talk of "yes" "no" to the umdy-dozen-thousands per second. But at the same time, great confidence is gained by throwing that block buster of a left jab; chin behind the shoulder, right glove rigidly protecting the chin, back foot moving up and near to the heel of the front foot, ready to lever that punch through to the back of an opponents head.....timing must be perfect....the jab must be thrown at faster than lightening speed......the feet must be set in place for that beez dick of a second. It is not a case of closing your eyes and hoping you hit either, it is a calculated, farking hard block buster, not a token flick out that can be brushed aside, or anticipated and right countered....... The practise also requires rapid thinking, and close waiting, waiting, waiting, till the moment is right, it is thrown so hard and fast that it hits your opponent before any counters can hit you. Sounds like I am skyting, but seriously, this is tested in this fashion when sparring,and any flaws are picked up there. The spars are intense and savage also.

I used to spar Mattioli, and I picked up on his left block-buster skill.....Ambrose never taught me the 'science' of Mattioli's left jab, it was just so farking obvious that Rockys left jabs were never able to be brushed aside, and caused an immense amount of pain and bother when they hit home.. It made me study his left jab with intensity, watching his timing, his movement, all the power efficiently going to where it was finally needed, as he rapidly entered the punch zone and launched those jabs so savagely. Pure and utter violence, but done so sweetly. I think a large part of Mattioli's skill was his waiting/calculation.....he'd give you a half a beez dick of movement, then beat you to the punch by his rapid hand skill.....

Speed, pace, power, prediction, precise timing, protective strategies can be easily read about, but to flower, need a lot of development, practise and directed practise, over a long and disciplined time.

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Old 12-18-2012, 11:33 PM   #37
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Best aussie post in a year - gold.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by atigerofold View Post
Good post Swingin !
..........................

You are so right with the statement that there are so many types of jabs...thrown in a huge variety of styles and ways.......as to overcommitting with the jab...it is essential that you never do.... and one's decision making is often the self talk of "yes" "no" to the umdy-dozen-thousands. But at the same time, great confidence is gained by throwing that block buster of a left jab; chin behind the shoulder, right glove rigidly protecting the chin, back foot moving up and near to the heel of the front foot, ready to lever that punch through to the back of an opponents head.....timing must be perfect....the jab must be thrown at faster than lightening speed......the feet must be set in place for that beez dick of a second. It is not a case of closing your eyes and hoping you hit either, it is a calculated, farking hard block buster, not a token flick out that can be brushed aside, or right countered....... The practise also requires a beez dick of thinking, waiting, waiting, then when the time is right, it is thrown so hard and fast that it hits your opponent before any counters can hit you. Sounds like I am skyting, but seriously, this is tested in this fashion when sparring,and any flaws are picked up there. The spars are intense and savage also.
I used to spar Mattioli, and I picked up on his left block-buster skill.....Ambrose never taught me the 'science' of Mattioli's left jab, it was just so farking obvious that Rockys left jabs were never able to be brushed aside, and caused an immense amount of pain and bother when they hit home.. It made me study his left jab with intensity, watching his timing, his movement, all the power going to where it was finally needed, and he rapidly entered the punch zone and launched those jabs so savagely. Pure and utter violence, but done so sweetly.
i was a no one, just a crowd pleasing amature. i was left handed that fought orthadox. my trainer didnt like 'paw paws'....i believe he made the wrong decision in me going orthadox.....no matter.

so i had a good jab, a decent left hook, and pretty good timing. i never had much of a right hand.

but when you 'stand' on a jab, as an opponent comes in, and yours lands first, with perfect timing, you can feel the whole weight of their body run down your arm, to your shoulder, back and legs. its like a load hanging on the end of your arm for a split second.

good fighters can KO you with a jab. timing. all timing and speed. its like walking into a half opened door....i never KO'D someone with a jab alone. i dropped a couple. but trevor thornberry KO'D a fighter or two with a jab. just great timing, strenght and speed. i think trevor was a left handed orthadox also?

one thing in hindsight that i should have focussed on, was the double jab. i believe its one of the most unused weapons in a fighters arsenal. so often the second jab will land, and give an opportunity for a right hand. even now, its rare to see a fighter use double jabs occaisionally throughout a fight.

also, i think you mention an uppercut lead? jersey joe beat won the heavy title with an uppercut lead. 1st punch he threw in the 9th i think. it was a left, not a right though, like you suggested. man, joe was a craftsman. his footwark was the most amazing thing to watch. such a conservation of effort. hollyfield was good also, but jersey joe didnt bounce, he had the best footwork of any fighter ive ever seen.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:04 AM   #39
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I saw Charkey Ramon do a lead right (I think) uppercut on British Pat Dwyer for the vacant Light Middle Commonwealth title in 1972. Easy punch on a bloke who held both of his hands to the side of his head. (I sparred Dwyer most nights of the month leading up to this fight - so he can blame me for not ever throwing a right upper cut....hahaha)
jersey Joe had an unconventional style I would say, still a craftsman as you say.

Different uncanny styles can obfuscate science boxers.

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Old 12-19-2012, 12:06 AM   #40
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Good on you Perko.....
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:34 AM   #41
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SWINGIN SAID: i was left handed that fought orthadox. my trainer didnt like 'paw paws'....i believe he made the wrong decision in me going orthadox.....no matter.
.................................................................................................... ..................

What you said here Swingin has always bewildered me....

Why ARE right handers made to shape up and lead with their left hand.....and visa versa
for those poor ole paw paws.....who thought this through, or who guided this dominant approach to boxing?

(Well maybe to answer myself..perhaps the science behind the shaping up, is valid.....perhaps a long time ago, the ability to catch punches with your stronger hand was a recognised beneficial method that was duly applied to the sport of boxing........and the right hand - held more far back than the left, with all its power, was put back that far to rest, or so that it might never hit you, with you seeing it coming, and then defusing the power of it by ducking or catching it......Boy ! who ever invented this rule or dominant shape-up code had some brains...brilliant in fact......he must have been noble man....or the marques of queensbury maybe ?? fark who would have guessed that?)
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:40 AM   #42
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SWINGIN SAID: i was left handed that fought orthadox. my trainer didnt like 'paw paws'....i believe he made the wrong decision in me going orthadox.....no matter.
.................................................................................................... ..................

What you said here Swingin has always bewildered me....

Why ARE right handers made to shape up and lead with their left hand.....and visa versa
for those poor ole paw paws.....who thought this through, or who guided this dominant approach to boxing?

(Well maybe to answer myself..perhaps the science behind the shaping up, is valid.....perhaps a long time ago, the ability to catch punches with your stronger hand was a recognised beneficial method that was duly applied to the sport of boxing........and the right hand held more far off than the left, with all its power, was put back that far so that it might never hit you, with you seeing it coming, and then defusing the power of the right hand by ducking or catching it......Boy ! who ever invented this rule or dominant shape up code was brilliant...he must have been noble man....or the marques of queensbury maybe ??)
i had it explained to me that 'it was like throwing a rock'. your best hand and leg go back to deliver the most power.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:52 AM   #43
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Velocity and shock too!!
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:14 AM   #44
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Anyone remember Pat Leglise leading with a right uppercut?
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:15 PM   #45
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I remember Pat Leglise; he had a great career.
Only saw a few of his fights in Melbourne; cannot remember if he threw the
formidable right lead uppercut, judging on the series of 23 fights he won in a row,
I would guess that he didnt throw it....then again, he won a large amount of his fights on knockouts.(half of them in fact)

There are so many ways to throw punches, and many directions to throw them in, attacking, retreating, side stepping, countering etc etc.

I think that a fighter learns to manage the style and action of his best punches; he usually is taught by opponents/sparring partners on what he can get away with......but I think the method instructions assist in providing knowledge about what is historically, preferred safe action.

I thought of another strategic punch that Palmer taught; dont know if this is in the Method, (I gave my signed copy away) this punch was a devastating blow, probably correctly termed as a counter punch; it was timed and thrown as a direct straight right cross 'inside' an opponents leading left hook.....this was particularly effective when the opponent threw his left hook without covering his chin (with right hand). The vigillant wait was on, as you waited, waited (finger on the trigger) as the opponent's left hook began; the arrow went through to the bulls eye, as your right cross travelled through, to the unprotected chin; it often gave you a sense that you were like a theif in the night throwing this punch. (and) This counter punch was highly punitive in its delivery, in picking up on a blatant defense mistake by the thrower of the lead left hook (who lazily, or uncaringly, did not bother to cover his chin whilst left hooking) This timed, "clever" right cross, usually caused a knockdown.

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