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Old 12-19-2012, 07:26 PM   #61
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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This is a totally unwarranted assertion.

Toney never shred a ring with anybody close to being as good a finisher as Dempsey was.
once he got em hurt, yeah. dempsey wouldn't have gotten toney flush or often enough to really hurt him.

if he didn't knock out gibbons, don't see him knocking out toney
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:18 PM   #62
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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So how many world class heavyweights did Toney beat, who were 37 years old, stupidly overconfident, or lacking a great skillset?
This is a match at 190, which during Toney's career was the cruiserweight division. An old McCallum and a prime Jirov impress me more. Add to it a 40 year old Holyfield, a decision over a prime Ruiz and his efforts against Peter in the first fight and Rahman... and frankly I am more impressed with Toney against fighters 190 and over.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:58 AM   #63
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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This is a totally unwarranted assertion.

Toney never shred a ring with anybody close to being as good a finisher as Dempsey was.
And Dempsey never stopped a fighter as defensively skilled as Toney.


If Denis lebedev couldn't stop Toney when he was beyond shot, drained and about 52 I don't see anyone doing it below that limit. Peter and rahman are harder punchers than Dempsey and neither could stop Toney.

Dempsey should win but not by stoppage, never in a million years.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:54 AM   #64
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Dempsey would obliterate Toney in his sleep. Toney was garbage and an embarrassment. The end of his career was laughable and didn't the bum try to venture into UFC and get an absolute hiding there too? People on this forum seem to wax lyricals over the dude who quite frankly stunk. Dempsey would floor him numerous times within 5 rounds and shatter his jaw like he did the big lumbering oaf Willard (yeah Wlad minus being a coward close to 90 years earlier).
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:04 AM   #65
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

the more i think about this the more i think jack would win a close fight on points like you do. jack was quick as hell an did have crazy upperbody movement at time, agility, fast feet. I think the dempsey of the willard fight would get countered bad though, he was a bit wreckless an you cant do that to james. its been so long since ive watched other jack fights so ill refrain from going further. Dempsey was all around faster than jirov an toney had to dig very deep in that fight. i think this would be an extremely violent fight
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And Dempsey never stopped a fighter as defensively skilled as Toney.


If Denis lebedev couldn't stop Toney when he was beyond shot, drained and about 52 I don't see anyone doing it below that limit. Peter and rahman are harder punchers than Dempsey and neither could stop Toney.

Dempsey should win but not by stoppage, never in a million years.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:16 AM   #66
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

There's no way in hell I can imagine this guy beating Dempsey :

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOqWPoR76mI[/ame]


For all his alleged "defensive genius" he doesn't half take a lot of punches, esp. to the body, and several to the head that come over the top that he's ridiculously slow to react to.
And Jirov is playing pitty-pat with those punches. In fact, both fighters are throwing weak arm punches almost the whole fight.

Toney has no legs, stands on the ropes and takes punches on his arms and on his flabby sides. Is this really the sort of "skill" that you'd want to fight Dempsey with ?

By all means, Dempsey might be over-rated due to generations of rose-tinted nostalgia and the hyperbole that accompanies such a cultural icon of America .... but what the **** is the excuse for this gross over-rating of James Toney ?

A 1987 cruiserweight Holyfield would have punched beaten Toney from pillar to post, and probably stopped him. Qawi would have probably punch the **** out of Toney too. Dempsey would have crushed him.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:30 AM   #67
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Unforgiven you're nitpicking, It would be close. nobody is stopping Toney. outworked, sure. Stopped. No
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:52 AM   #68
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Unforgiven you're nitpicking, It would be close. nobody is stopping Toney. outworked, sure. Stopped. No

Toney's results, performances and achievements above middleweight are very patchy. His reputation seems to be aided largely by his big mouth and a few 'old school' moves and skills that don't seem so effective outside of highlight reels. He was an excellent fighter but he's getting a bit over-rated.

I think Dempsey would stop Toney, because I seriously doubt Toney can take punches to the body for 12 or 15 rounds from Dempsey, never mind the head. His "defensive skills" involve taking shots to the shoulders, arms and sides, and standing on the ropes trying to slow the pace and then pot-shot and counter. It's suicide against Dempsey, imo.


I'd expect several men to stop Toney. Men with speed, power and workrate, at cruiser or heavyweight.
Toney would have lasted 3 rounds with Mike Tyson, at most, imo. It could well be over in 1 round.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:17 AM   #69
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Toney soaked up shots from fighters that outweigh Jack by 60 pounds. Massive punchers that hit harder than Dempsey. Enough said. You really think Jack has the concussive heavy handed power of rahman or sam peter? You're the one overrating dempsey here. He could win with speed an activity an that's even a maybe, but I would favor him. Knock toney out? Right okay... Dempsey never fought anyone as skilled as toney.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:34 AM   #70
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Toney soaked up shots from fighters that outweigh Jack by 60 pounds. Massive punchers that hit harder than Dempsey. Enough said. You really think Jack has the concussive heavy handed power of rahman or sam peter? You're the one overrating dempsey here. He could win with speed an activity an that's even a maybe, but I would favor him. Knock toney out? Right okay... Dempsey never fought anyone as skilled as toney.
Firstly, Toney wasn't 190 pounds when he fought Rahman and Peter. He was pumped full of steroids, and weighed almost as much as they did.

Secondly, Rahman and Peter were heavy-handed. But it's sharp accurate power and combination punching that often results in knock-outs. I think you can probably count the amount of genuine ranked contender fighters who Sam and Hasim stopped between them on the fingers of one hand.

I've explained why I think Dempsey could stop Toney. My critique of Toney's style is valid. I think a cruiser Holyfield would stop Toney too. Toney's style wouldn't work well against those fighters.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:43 AM   #71
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Toney's results, performances and achievements above middleweight are very patchy. His reputation seems to be aided largely by his big mouth and a few 'old school' moves and skills that don't seem so effective outside of highlight reels. He was an excellent fighter but he's getting a bit over-rated.

I think Dempsey would stop Toney, because I seriously doubt Toney can take punches to the body for 12 or 15 rounds from Dempsey, never mind the head. His "defensive skills" involve taking shots to the shoulders, arms and sides, and standing on the ropes trying to slow the pace and then pot-shot and counter. It's suicide against Dempsey, imo.


I'd expect several men to stop Toney. Men with speed, power and workrate, at cruiser or heavyweight.
Toney would have lasted 3 rounds with Mike Tyson, at most, imo. It could well be over in 1 round.
I agree with what you've been saying Unforgiven but I SERIOUSLY doubt Dempsey would KO Toney particularly in a modern rule set with modern gloves. It usually took Dempsey dozens of knockdowns before getting his man out of there and added to the fact there was much smaller gloves, no moutguards, beign able to stand over and hit a downed opponent and refs turning a blind eye to Dempsey's numerous fouls. The closest thing resembling Toney that Dempsey fought was Gibbons and he lasted the whole 15 but got outworked and I think that's what happens here.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:05 AM   #72
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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I agree with what you've been saying Unforgiven but I SERIOUSLY doubt Dempsey would KO Toney particularly in a modern rule set with modern gloves. It usually took Dempsey dozens of knockdowns before getting his man out of there and added to the fact there was much smaller gloves, no moutguards, beign able to stand over and hit a downed opponent and refs turning a blind eye to Dempsey's numerous fouls. The closest thing resembling Toney that Dempsey fought was Gibbons and he lasted the whole 15 but got outworked and I think that's what happens here.
I dunno, Toney's style doesn't impress me regarding his chances to survive Dempsey.
Gibbons had legs, and ran with them, and grabbed (Dempsey was coming off a 2-year layoff and probably wasn't prime sharp anyway). Toney, even in his prime at lighter weights, was always a bit static.
I can only judge his style from what I see. I see him standing on the ropes, taking shots in the body and arms, and rolling ones to the head. Being cute on the ropes. Certain guys would murder him for doing that, Dempsey I think is one of them.
I don't see Toney on his bicycle, jabbing and grabbing and running.

In a modern rule set, fights are stopped more readily, so that balances out against what you said about Dempsey needing numerous KDs and fouls.


Dempsey KO'd a few guys who hadn't been stopped before.
Bill Brennan, Billy Miske, Battling Levinsky had never been stopped until Dempsey did it.

If a 190 pound Toney had faced the prime Holyfields, even light-heavy Moorer, or even David Haye, never mind a prime Tyson, and stood up to those sorts of assaults and speed and punches, I'd probably revere his durability far more.
I just don't consider Jirov, or massive dreadnought plodders like Sam Peter to be great indicators of his ability to survive a sustained Dempsey assault and mauling.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:07 AM   #73
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Having said all that, some of the postors here would probably expect Toney to last the distance with prime Tyson and a prime Joe Louis (or even beat Louis !), so no point in arguing.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:39 AM   #74
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Toney's results, performances and achievements above middleweight are very patchy. His reputation seems to be aided largely by his big mouth and a few 'old school' moves and skills that don't seem so effective outside of highlight reels. He was an excellent fighter but he's getting a bit over-rated.

I think Dempsey would stop Toney, because I seriously doubt Toney can take punches to the body for 12 or 15 rounds from Dempsey, never mind the head. His "defensive skills" involve taking shots to the shoulders, arms and sides, and standing on the ropes trying to slow the pace and then pot-shot and counter. It's suicide against Dempsey, imo.
Your characterization of Toney's style is bunk. In his prime, Toney was very hard to hit flush. He's not just taking shots but rolling with them. Maybe Jack Demspey can teach James Toney something about defense? Like how to take five or six telegraphed right hands in a row from Firpo?

How is Toney's style "suicide" against Dempsey and why? You really think that Dempsey hit a dozen times harder than anyone Toney ever fought? Nope. Dempsey was just a man. He was about the size of Jirov. So what exactly is Dempsey going to do? You think Toney, who fought middles, SMWs, and LHWs is going to be impressed by Dempsey's speed? I'm not buying it. Dempsey is not Roy Jones, not by a long shot.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:58 AM   #75
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Your characterization of Toney's style is bunk. In his prime, Toney was very hard to hit flush. He's not just taking shots but rolling with them. Maybe Jack Demspey can teach James Toney something about defense? Like how to take five or six telegraphed right hands in a row from Firpo?
Watch the footage. Toney is taking shots. Jirov is hitting him in the body. And in the head. There's only so much you can take out of a punch by rolling, esp. a body shot. Toney was hurt by some of those punches to the belly.
Dempsey had raw power and speed. He was a brute. Gene Tunney beat him by avoiding the punches completely and beating him to the punch, a past-prime Dempsey. Tunney's not sitting on the ropes blocking the punches with his shoulder, waiting to get mauled.

Quote:
How is Toney's style "suicide" against Dempsey and why? You really think that Dempsey hit a dozen times harder than anyone Toney ever fought? Nope. Dempsey was just a man. He was about the size of Jirov. So what exactly is Dempsey going to do? You think Toney, who fought middles, SMWs, and LHWs is going to be impressed by Dempsey's speed? I'm not buying it. Dempsey is not Roy Jones, not by a long shot.
Of course Dempsey was just a man. But he hit harder than Jirov.
Dempsey's speed and power would be too much for Toney, yes.
I'm not over-rating Dempsey. I think other guys would have beat Toney up at cruiserweight too. A 1987 Holyfield would have smashed him up too.

You talk about Toney against middles, SMWs and LHWs, well, a lot of those guys also gave him serious problems because of his lazy style. He needed gifts to get past some of those guys. And how many of them hit even as hard as Tommy Hearns, never mind Dempsey.

There's a reason Toney wasn't a dominant fighter at cruiser or at heavy. It's because he's no where near as good as some of you rate him.

How many ferocious pressure fighters did Toney ever beat at any weight ?
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