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Old 12-20-2012, 02:18 PM   #76
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Jess Willard was a bit dreadful when Jack Dempsey faced him, but I think Jess gets a raw deal generally.
Knocking out Jack Johnson in the 26th round was epic. Johnson was past his best, but if Jeffries or Langford had done the same to Jack Johnson we'd be hearing about how great that is.
The film shows that he KO'd Johnson with a sharp straight right hand to the temple, so it's not like Johnson just gassed out and fell to some crappy cowboy swing.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:32 PM   #77
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Toney's one of those fighters who gets over-rated for his cute moves. People tend to ignore the times he gets hit or his glaring flaws, because when his cute moves work it looks so easy, and so cute.
I couldn't agree more with the quote above. Just because Toney lands a nice counter right hand doesn't mean the three punches the other guy landed before that have been erased from history.

I scored the first Toney-Peter Match in Peter's favor, by a small margin. The Showtime commentators that night made me sick to my ****ing stomach.

*Peter lands a huge right hand, staggering Toney*: "Look at how well he absorbed that shot, rolling with it now!
*Toney lands a flicking jab after being thrashed on the ropes*: "PERFECT LEFT HAND FROM TONEY THAT BACKS OFF PETER!!!!!"

I don't see James "split decision" Toney beating Dempsey. Even his best win, Jirov, was very close were it not for a great finish. Then he has many off nights like against Tiberi and Dick friggin Thadzki or something.

I don't hold Dempsey in as high regard as most here, but I don't see him losing to Toney.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:06 PM   #78
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Jirov was a joke really. Dempsey had all time great skills, faster hands than Louis and one punch ko power. As per Arcel....."what Dempsey had you can't teach"
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:28 PM   #79
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Watch the footage. Toney is taking shots. Jirov is hitting him in the body. And in the head. There's only so much you can take out of a punch by rolling, esp. a body shot. Toney was hurt by some of those punches to the belly.
Dempsey had raw power and speed. He was a brute. Gene Tunney beat him by avoiding the punches completely and beating him to the punch, a past-prime Dempsey. Tunney's not sitting on the ropes blocking the punches with his shoulder, waiting to get mauled.



Of course Dempsey was just a man. But he hit harder than Jirov.
Dempsey's speed and power would be too much for Toney, yes.
I'm not over-rating Dempsey. I think other guys would have beat Toney up at cruiserweight too. A 1987 Holyfield would have smashed him up too.

You talk about Toney against middles, SMWs and LHWs, well, a lot of those guys also gave him serious problems because of his lazy style. He needed gifts to get past some of those guys. And how many of them hit even as hard as Tommy Hearns, never mind Dempsey.

There's a reason Toney wasn't a dominant fighter at cruiser or at heavy. It's because he's no where near as good as some of you rate him.

How many ferocious pressure fighters did Toney ever beat at any weight ?
The Jirov fight was close (in fact it could have gone to Jirov despite the knock down), but you are overlooking the styles aspect of it. Jirov was throwing crazy volume nonstop, plus from a southpaw stance. Some of those punches were just slaps but some had power behind them. Jirov's relentless pressure and smothering caused Toney problems.

But when did Dempsey ever fight like this? When did he throw that kind of volume? Dempsey was much more of a typical opponent in that sense, and would present Toney with opportunities to land the counter right hands that he likes to throw. It's very different when the opponent is in your chest round after round, because you can't get off that kind of punch.

As for Holyfield, Toney dismantled him on the inside when they fought. I don't see that changing with a 1987 version. Cruiserweight Holyfield would have to keep it on the outside, because Toney would clown and dismantle him on the inside.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:38 PM   #80
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Jirov was a joke really. Dempsey had all time great skills, faster hands than Louis and one punch ko power. As per Arcel....."what Dempsey had you can't teach"
No he was not a joke. You're disrespecting the sport of boxing, you idiot. That is what you're doing on here. Constantly, blindly picking any old bum over any "modern" fighter. Dempsey's skills, especially defensively, were extremely limited. And get this through your head: no gives a shit what Ray Arcel or Nat Fleischer had to say when it contradicts the video evidence, as well as basic common sense.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:53 PM   #81
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by rusak View Post
The Jirov fight was close (in fact it could have gone to Jirov despite the knock down), but you are overlooking the styles aspect of it. Jirov was throwing crazy volume nonstop, plus from a southpaw stance. Some of those punches were just slaps but some had power behind them. Jirov's relentless pressure and smothering caused Toney problems.

But when did Dempsey ever fight like this? When did he throw that kind of volume? Dempsey was much more of a typical opponent in that sense, and would present Toney with opportunities to land the counter right hands that he likes to throw. It's very different when the opponent is in your chest round after round, because you can't get off that kind of punch.

As for Holyfield, Toney dismantled him on the inside when they fought. I don't see that changing with a 1987 version. Cruiserweight Holyfield would have to keep it on the outside, because Toney would clown and dismantle him on the inside.
I think Dempsey would be on top of Toney, mauling him on the inside, ripping right hands to the body, tearing him up.

Holyfield of 1987 would push Toney back and break him down, throwing punches from all ranges. I doubt Toney would do much better than Ocasio or DeLeon did.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:14 PM   #82
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Unforgiven you're nitpicking, It would be close. nobody is stopping Toney. outworked, sure. Stopped. No
Agree with this. Got Dempsey outworking Toney, not knocking him out.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:57 PM   #83
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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This is a match at 190, which during Toney's career was the cruiserweight division. An old McCallum and a prime Jirov impress me more. Add to it a 40 year old Holyfield, a decision over a prime Ruiz and his efforts against Peter in the first fight and Rahman... and frankly I am more impressed with Toney against fighters 190 and over.

The fact that you have to build Toneys heavyweight resume primarily based on fights he didn't win, says all that needs to be said in the matter.

If you are more impressed by Toneys resume over 190lbs, then you are either delusional ore woefully misguided.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:05 PM   #84
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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I haven't tried to big up his heavyweight resume. Just saying, Willard was a dreadful fighter.
If he was then that is very bad news for Toney, because this is exactly the kind of win he never managed.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:25 PM   #85
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

people are entitled to their opinion. one thing is for sure the only one fighter that really bothers me getting the flack he does is toney. He fought everyone. unlike dempsey.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:28 PM   #86
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

porky dan flynn... that name just sounds like a ****in bum
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:37 PM   #87
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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people are entitled to their opinion. one thing is for sure the only one fighter that really bothers me getting the flack he does is toney. He fought everyone. unlike dempsey.
This is an incredible statment.

Criticising Dempsey for not fighting Harry Wills is like criticising Toney for not fighting the Klitschko brothers.

The key difference between them is that Dempsey is expected to fight everybody who is elite, while Toney is lionised for fighting anybody who is elite!
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:38 PM   #88
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by brnxhands View Post
porky dan flynn... that name just sounds like a ****in bum
He was a prety good contender.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:16 AM   #89
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Criticising Dempsey for not fighting Harry Wills is like criticising Toney for not fighting the Klitschko brothers.
Janitor, I know you're a knowledgeable man so I'll ask. Do you honestly believe the above statement? Or was it a spur of the moment thing.

Come on man. Toney wasn't even champion at heavyweight (not counting the brief beltholder period before being stripped for steroids). He didn't need to fight anyone. But Dempsey was champion. And he choose to ignore the clear #1 contender for 7 years straight and fight the loser of title eliminators twice.

So, if you compare Toney not fighting Klitschko to Dempsey not fighting Wills.. well, I'd be disappointed in your inability to distinguish between the key factors that separate these events.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:53 AM   #90
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Jack Sharkey: 26-5
Luis Angel Firpo: 25-2
Bill Brennan: 38-5-3
Jess Willard: 21-3-1
Tony Drake: [UNKNOWN]
Carl Morris: 40-6-1
Fred Fulton: 41-5
Porky Dan Flynn: 32-13-8
Tom Riley: 0-3
Andre Anderson: 5-4-1

vs.

Bobby Gunn: 21-4-1
Damon Reed: 46-14
Matthew Greer: 12-5
Fres Oquendo: 29-4
Hasim Rahman: 45-6-2
Danny Batchelder: 25-4-1
Dominic Guinn: 25-2-1
John Ruiz: 41-5-1
Rydell Booker: 22-0
Evander Holyfield: 38-6-2
Vassiliy Jirov: 31-0
Jason Robinson: 16-2
Sione Asipeli: 17-3-2
Wesley Martin: 13-29-8
Saul Montana: 34-9
Courtney Butler: 20-4-2
Terry McGroom: 18-1-2
Ramon Garbey: 14-1
Adolpho Washington: 27-7-2
Terry Porter: 11-3-2
Richard Mason: 21-4-1

Quote:
Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
^ Both men's resume at/over 190lbs.

Jirov weighed 188 actually.
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