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Old 12-21-2012, 02:01 PM   #31
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Default Re: My first steps into training and coaching..

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Originally Posted by dempsey1234 View Post
[b]
NOW GIVING YOU CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE YOU ARE CORRECT A FIGHTER CAN INCREASE HIS POWER, AND I KNOW YOU GONNA HATE THIS, ANY GOOD BOXING COACH CAN DO THAT.
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO REALIZE THAT BOXING COACHES DO A TERRIFIC JOB AND KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING DESPITE NOT KNOWING THE HUMAN BODY LIKE YOU DO.
HELP SOMEONE WITH A SPECIAL NEED TRAINING-WISE THATS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING.
Most boxing coaches can and do a great job with conditioning. The point is a strength and conditioning coach can do a better job as that's what they specialize in, hence strength and conditioning coach. Do you dispute this fact?
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:28 PM   #32
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most boxing coaches can and do a great job with conditioning. The point is a strength and conditioning coach can do a better job as that's what they specialize in, hence strength and conditioning coach. Do you dispute this fact?
if you have a special needs fighter, yes a good s&c guy is needed and can be an asset. Most of the time you dont need that specialized training a good boxing coach can adequately do the job, do you dispute that?
and to answer your question, it depends on the situation. I would say yes s&c guys have more book learning, but boxing coaches have more hands on experience
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #33
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if you have a special needs fighter, yes a good s&c guy is needed and can be an asset. Most of the time you dont need that specialized training a good boxing coach can adequately do the job, do you dispute that?
No. Nobody does.

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and to answer your question, it depends on the situation. I would say yes s&c guys have more book learning, but boxing coaches have more hands on experience
Why do you think S&C is all learning and no physical work? I could give you a list of world class strength and conditioning coaches with many, many years of hard work and hands on experience training some of the top athletes in the world if you'd like?

I really don't understand why you downplay S&C and see the coaches as these pathetic wannabes that just read books all day and do nothing else. They're there for a specialized area if needed and most are damn smart and hard working if they're called upon.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:05 PM   #34
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Default Re: My first steps into training and coaching..

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No. Nobody does.



Why do you think S&C is all learning and no physical work? I could give you a list of world class strength and conditioning coaches with many, many years of hard work and hands on experience training some of the top athletes in the world if you'd like?

I really don't understand why you downplay S&C and see the coaches as these pathetic wannabes that just read books all day and do nothing else. They're there for a specialized area if needed and most are damn smart and hard working if they're called upon.
"I really don't understand why you downplay S&C and see the coaches as these pathetic wannabes that just read books all day and do nothing else." I dont think I ever said that, thats what you read into it.
They're there for a specialized area if needed and most are damn smart and hard working if they're called upon. I definetely agree with this statement. Why not work together and accept and respect that each works hard, towards the same goal, getting a fighter ready to fight.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: My first steps into training and coaching..

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if you have a special needs fighter, yes a good s&c guy is needed and can be an asset. Most of the time you dont need that specialized training a good boxing coach can adequately do the job, do you dispute that?
and to answer your question, it depends on the situation. I would say yes s&c guys have more book learning, but boxing coaches have more hands on experience
Yeah because every athlete should aim to be adequate..
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:40 PM   #36
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Yeah because every athlete should aim to be adequate..

Nitpickin' yapper, now you grabbin' at straws.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:10 PM   #37
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Well you've just given me an example of someone who is uneducated. Repeating a jab for 6 months is pointless. Learning is best achieved when practice is random and varied, that's a fact of motor learning. Also I don't see how a pushup and a plyo ball pass are in any way related, one isn't a substitute for the other.
Still waiting for the OP's definition of old school.
whoa! uneducated is kind of a strong assumption. granted my education does mostly come from the early 90's when I started coaching, but "uneducated", wow, lol.

here's what I do know is, even though there's been tremendous advances to the athletic sciences, the foundational things have not changed over the course of mans' existence. The elbow joint still only moves two ways, and gravity is still the primary force against the body. Newton's laws and biomechanical principles (hips low with wide base for stability, use of levers & forces, etc) are still just as applicable as they have been since the beginning of (human) time. we just didn't know it until some "discovered" them.

And my "uneducated" self really disaggrees with this statement, "Learning is best achieved when practice is random and varied, that's a fact of motor learning". Variety is definitely a factor but not the foundation of "motor learning". Again, it's been a while since i've been in school but i'm pretty sure that kids are still learning their math times tables and musical scales the same way and not from "random". having them go random from the beginning would be like re-inventing the wheel every time. in the mid seventies two guys (maybe scientists, I don't remember) came up with the seven stages of athletic development: perceive (what, where, why, how, etc of the skill), patterns, refining, adapting THEN the athlete could come up with how to improvise, invent and compose. This is how I've been teaching boxing on and off for around 15 years, is by using all the info I just mentioned. I'm pretty satisfied with my results.

you may have some really good knowledge, but it's unfortunate you don't share it in a more positive way (you have a gift, and instead of sharing it you tease people with it). sad really.

And, FYI, almost everything can be taught from the jab. pressure, boxing, circles, angles, off the ropes, blocking, parrying, feinting, headmovement, body shots, (and the list could go on) can be taught with ONLY using jabs. all the movement/positioning needed to execute combinations can be worked on with jabs. the only thing the jab is used for, in any of the drills for any of the strategies I just mentioned, is for feedback on range and accuracy.
----------

GREYNOTESOOLD, brings up a really good point about teaching punches first. from my experience I have found it is key to teach skills stationary then add movement. slightly different from GNSO, i teach feet and hands separately in their first day class, then add them together with a move-stop-throw concept so they are NOT in motion and throwing at the same time. they can focus on their foot rules during movement then their hand rules while punching. like basketball has dribbling, shooting and passing, boxing has hands, head and feet. I think it's important to introduce all three elements (in a very simplified way) as early as possible.
----------

and back to the original post from SLIPnCOUNTER, it sounds like you're at a good place to learn. I know personally, I learn more when I listen. I suggest you ask questions and listen to the answers. And be open to learning from all angles. I've learned some good stuff from some really good coaches over the years but I've learned far more from bad coaches doing the wrong thing and me making note so I don't do what they did, or make sure I do the opposite.

and my request is that you post and keep us updated on your progress. I know I really enjoy hearing about positive new coaches coming into their own.

have fun with it.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:23 PM   #38
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As far as you training your son, keep in mind that you have a time luxury you will not necessarily have when you begin training kids in a gym. You need to take advantage of that if your intention is to teach your son how to fight for real. You'll read a ton of advice to teach him how to move first, with the idea that this teaches balance. This is 100% counter productive.
To teach balance and everything else, start with proper punching technique. DRILL that into his mind and body. Teach him to throw endless combinations without moving his feet, other than to shift his weight. No "stepping" with punches. That teaches bad habits; that is how you end up with a guy that gets his feet too far apart.
Once he has mastered that proper punching technique, the rest comes easy. He'll catch onto the movement right away, and keep on balance because he'll understand what he is trying to accomplish, why his feet need to be in a certain place. It will also help you to teach this down the line, how to move your weight to avoid punches while always being in a spot to punch back effectively.
You'll find, over time working with young guys, that they hit a turning point in their ability to move well. You'll see 11, 12, 13 years olds that are awkward and sluggish in their footwork become very fluent right around the 14th birthday. Why, I don't know (I'm ignorant of physiology!!) but this happens an awful lot. You can't let it mess with your mind or your approach. Trust in the foundation you set.
I cannot emphasize how essential it is to teach proper punching right out the gate. If you want to create a truly accomplished fighter, one that molds offense and defense, you'll start there. This becomes harder later on, when you are trying to teach 20 kids a night and trying to give each the attention he or she deserves. There is a lot of frustration there, if you care about what you are doing, and you'll develope ways to do your best.
By far the best post in this thread. Are you a coach?
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: My first steps into training and coaching..

[quote=BoxinScienceUSA;14452070]whoa! uneducated is kind of a strong assumption. granted my education does mostly come from the early 90's when I started coaching, but "uneducated", wow, lol.

here's what I do know is, even though there's been tremendous advances to the athletic sciences, the foundational things have not changed over the course of mans' existence. The elbow joint still only moves two ways, and gravity is still the primary force against the body. Newton's laws and biomechanical principles (hips low with wide base for stability, use of levers & forces, etc) are still just as applicable as they have been since the beginning of (human) time. we just didn't know it until some "discovered" them.

And my "uneducated" self really disaggrees with this statement, "Learning is best achieved when practice is random and varied, that's a fact of motor learning". Variety is definitely a factor but not the foundation of "motor learning". Again, it's been a while since i've been in school but i'm pretty sure that kids are still learning their math times tables and musical scales the same way and not from "random". having them go random from the beginning would be like re-inventing the wheel every time. in the mid seventies two guys (maybe scientists, I don't remember) came up with the seven stages of athletic development: perceive (what, where, why, how, etc of the skill), patterns, refining, adapting THEN the athlete could come up with how to improvise, invent and compose. This is how I've been teaching boxing on and off for around 15 years, is by using all the info I just mentioned. I'm pretty satisfied with my results.

you may have some really good knowledge, but it's unfortunate you don't share it in a more positive way (you have a gift, and instead of sharing it you tease people with it). sad really.

And, FYI, almost everything can be taught from the jab. pressure, boxing, circles, angles, off the ropes, blocking, parrying, feinting, headmovement, body shots, (and the list could go on) can be taught with ONLY using jabs. all the movement/positioning needed to execute combinations can be worked on with jabs. the only thing the jab is used for, in any of the drills for any of the strategies I just mentioned, is for feedback on range and accuracy.
----------

GREYNOTESOOLD, brings up a really good point about teaching punches first. from my experience I have found it is key to teach skills stationary then add movement. slightly different from GNSO, i teach feet and hands separately in their first day class, then add them together with a move-stop-throw concept so they are NOT in motion and throwing at the same time. they can focus on their foot rules during movement then their hand rules while punching. like basketball has dribbling, shooting and passing, boxing has hands, head and feet. I think it's important to introduce all three elements (in a very simplified way) as early as possible.
----------

and back to the original post from SLIPnCOUNTER, it sounds like you're at a good place to learn. I know personally, I learn more when I listen. I suggest you ask questions and listen to the answers. And be open to learning from all angles. I've learned some good stuff from some really good coaches over the years but I've learned far more from bad coaches doing the wrong thing and me making note so I don't do what they did, or make sure I do the opposite.

and my request is that you post and keep us updated on your progress. I know I really enjoy hearing about positive new coaches coming into their own.

have fun with it.[/quote



Thank you for standing up, this needed to be said. I believe like Bruce Lee, He incorporated different martial arts and even boxing into developing his own style. Now with the internet and youtube you can see many styles and techniques, cut n paste the ones that work for you and your fighters, like the man said "have fun with it."
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