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Old 12-22-2012, 01:59 PM   #31
thewinfella
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Of course Condit has an aggressive style. I'm a huge fan of Carlos, his fighting style, his skills, fighting spirit and the way he speaks and carries himself.

But I do back Rory to beat him in a war. Not for certain - Condit is too good to pick anyone against him with full confidence, GSP included - but I reckon Rory will take it. That's why I said that if Rory can stop him or sweep the cards, that would be a huge statement. Rory's been talked about as a potential champion for a long time, and if he decisively gets the better of Carlos then it'll be the first true confirmation that the hype is really legit.

And Rory is now established enough that a win for Condit vaults him right back onto the p4p list. Nobody can wave away a clear victory over this version of Rory like it's a given. That's why I like this fight. Because if either man wins clearly then it puts him right in the thick of the most stacked division, and if either of them loses it's not a massive setback because they're both top-quality legit guys and everyone knows it.

Very fair
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

Silva



GSP
Jones
Aldo
Edgar
Hendricks
Bendo
Johnson
Barao
Hendo
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:31 PM   #33
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

Am I the only guy who has Georges as a clear number one then?
The top 3 writes itself, but for me GSP is the consummate Mixed Martial Artist. I guess he's taking a bit of flak due to his finish rate, but his resume ****s on every one else in MMA. Talent wise maybe Anderson takes it, but GSP and Jones fight better guys more regularly, and if size wasnt a factor Id favour both to beat him as they are the most effective wrasslers in the business.

Isnt that what P4P is all about?
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

Wrestling to a decision is not decisively finishing a fight is it?

Silva has been finishing fights practically the whole time he's been a dominant champion, Knock out's and submissions, his variation of weapons makes St Pierre look one dimensional.

I wouldn't say St Pierre takes flak per say, he's just not as good as Silva, i think the vast majority of the MMA world, be it fighters, fans, media, anybody involved in MMA recognise St Pierre for what he is, an extremely dedicated athlete, and i dont say the word "extremely" lightly, where as Sliva is simply a born finisher!

The size factor in MMA when considering the true elite fighters in the sport does not really effect things so much that size alone will win a guy a fight, and id be willing to place money on it that St Pierre in terms of core body strength is stronger than most LHW's.
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:58 PM   #35
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Diaz ............ is this in reference to his reign as SF champion? because if it is, he cannot in any way shape or form be compared to Frankie Edgar, Edgar was the man who beat the man, TWICE! Diaz was the man who was fighting middle level guys, and beating them! claiming to be a "world champion".

Dan Henderson is Dan Henderson but im sorry, he's done! he's got nothing left, he has absolutely zero business in the current top 10 P4P list. I salute the man's courage and i salute his services to mixed martial arts, but he's not an elite fighter, not today, and the top 10 p4p only has room for elite!

I have to dis-agree with the what seems like the whole forum about Machida, stylistically Shogun had his number, he did not lose that fight against Rampage, he claims he was ill against Jones and was advised not to fight ???, not sure, we'll never know, his reluctance to go looking for the champ may suggest otherwise, he's now on a run of form, which for me see's this unique top draw fighter back into P4P contention, i have a spot for Machida like i do Velasquez, he will be back, and i hope they give him Phil Davis or Alexander Gustaffson because IMHO he'd obliterate both of them!

Like you say Sir, its always good to debate
I may have to overlook my list because in the end, it comes down to the individual, and not who holds the belt (Demetrius Johnson, Renan Barao)

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Old 12-22-2012, 07:30 PM   #36
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

I get you win, but GSP for me simply has been fighting better guys. Id rank beating very good fighters in your own weight class above beating journeymen in the division above, no matter how impressively. And at 185, it's no fault of Silva's but 185 is very weak.

To sum it up, GSP is a 9 out of 10 guy at every facet of MMA whilst Silva is a 10/10 guy in stand up in a division where Bisping and Stann are top strikers...He'd have to beat Jones to top Georges achievements for me
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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I get you win, but GSP for me simply has been fighting better guys. Id rank beating very good fighters in your own weight class above beating journeymen in the division above, no matter how impressively. And at 185, it's no fault of Silva's but 185 is very weak.

To sum it up, GSP is a 9 out of 10 guy at every facet of MMA whilst Silva is a 10/10 guy in stand up in a division where Bisping and Stann are top strikers...He'd have to beat Jones to top Georges achievements for me
I don't know, can't argue with that. Respect.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Machida has done what any top fighter does, he's finished what has been put in front of him, he will absolutely annihilate Gustaffson, without a shadow of a doubt, having long lims and a good reach may be enough to keep other strikers off, but not pure strikers like Machida, Machida will find the hole, and he will hurt him!
You won't find me arguing about Machida-Gustafsson, Lyoto is a level or two above that guy and would simply pick his moments and lash him to defeat, no sweat.

But that's not really the issue here, the issue is that even though I am a massive Machida fan, he is one of my top 5 active fighters, possibly top two, the fact is that objectively he doesn't merit a p4p placing right at this moment in time, despite (in my opinion) being one of the top 10 fighters in the world on ability.

Objectively, Lyoto's last 5 fights are:

- Bader (win over a guy who is not top 10, a C-class guy talent-wise)
- Jones (OK Lyoto won the 1st round but he was finished in the 2nd)
- Couture (win over a pretty much shot fighter who got a gift against Vera the last time he fought a top 20 lhw, which was a long time earlier anyway)
- Rampage (I believe Lyoto won the fight, but regardless, he was unconvincing and largely unimpressive against a well, well past-prime version of Quinton)
- Shogun (brutally TKO'd)

Two fairly decent wins, two pretty brutal losses, and a thoroughly 'meh' performance against an old worn 'Page.

This simply is not p4p form at all, if indeed you value objectivity and form when it comes to p4p rankings.

The last time Lyoto turned in a convincing winning performance against a genuinely top fighter in his division was May 2009 against Rashad.

That's just too long ago to maintain his position. Too many other guys (like Johny Hendricks, like Renan Barao, like Carlos Condit) have been taking clear wins over bona fide top guys in their divisions recently for Lyoto to have any possible claim of parity with them.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:44 AM   #39
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Am I the only guy who has Georges as a clear number one then?
The top 3 writes itself, but for me GSP is the consummate Mixed Martial Artist. I guess he's taking a bit of flak due to his finish rate, but his resume ****s on every one else in MMA. Talent wise maybe Anderson takes it, but GSP and Jones fight better guys more regularly,
I wouldn't really argue with someone who has GSP as #1, it's a perfectly valid call as I see it. I personally rank Anderson higher for the following reasons:

- Anderson's last 3 fights before Bonnar were ridiculously impressive for me. A once-in-a-lifetime KO of world-class Vitor Belfort (who had NEVER been finished like that in his long, long career), a humiliating beatdown and finish of a genuine top 5 fighter in Okami, and the revenge TKO of the undisputed #1 contender Chael Sonnen where he showed good TDD in that 2nd round and then seemed to take Sonnen's soul, turning him *****like. To me, this is more form deserving of the p4p#1 position than either wrestling or jabbing your way to dominant decisions. GSP is incredible, but Anderson has been spectacularly finishing top guys, and this is so important (imo)

- Anderson has effectively been undefeated since Dec 2004, he is undefeated in the UFC, undefeated in title fights, holds all the records for consecutive runs, while GSP was knocked out by Matt Serra in the UFC, and so his run of dominance is shorter and far less emphatic. If Anderson had been KO'd by someone of that calibre early on, say Marquardt or Leben, I'd probably have GSP higher now, their respective runs is a factor to take into account (not the most important one, but not to disregarded completely)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
and if size wasnt a factor Id favour both to beat him as they are the most effective wrasslers in the business.

Isnt that what P4P is all about?
No, that isn't what I take it to be at all. JMHO.

But if Anderson and GSP do fight at a catchweight they are both comfortable at, I'd say Anderson executes GSP in savage fashion.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:31 PM   #40
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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I get you win, but GSP for me simply has been fighting better guys. Id rank beating very good fighters in your own weight class above beating journeymen in the division above, no matter how impressively. And at 185, it's no fault of Silva's but 185 is very weak.

To sum it up, GSP is a 9 out of 10 guy at every facet of MMA whilst Silva is a 10/10 guy in stand up in a division where Bisping and Stann are top strikers...He'd have to beat Jones to top Georges achievements for me
Its fair, i dont agree but its fair!
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:56 PM   #41
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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You won't find me arguing about Machida-Gustafsson, Lyoto is a level or two above that guy and would simply pick his moments and lash him to defeat, no sweat.

But that's not really the issue here, the issue is that even though I am a massive Machida fan, he is one of my top 5 active fighters, possibly top two, the fact is that objectively he doesn't merit a p4p placing right at this moment in time, despite (in my opinion) being one of the top 10 fighters in the world on ability.

Objectively, Lyoto's last 5 fights are:

- Bader (win over a guy who is not top 10, a C-class guy talent-wise)
- Jones (OK Lyoto won the 1st round but he was finished in the 2nd)
- Couture (win over a pretty much shot fighter who got a gift against Vera the last time he fought a top 20 lhw, which was a long time earlier anyway)
- Rampage (I believe Lyoto won the fight, but regardless, he was unconvincing and largely unimpressive against a well, well past-prime version of Quinton)
- Shogun (brutally TKO'd)

Two fairly decent wins, two pretty brutal losses, and a thoroughly 'meh' performance against an old worn 'Page.

This simply is not p4p form at all, if indeed you value objectivity and form when it comes to p4p rankings.

The last time Lyoto turned in a convincing winning performance against a genuinely top fighter in his division was May 2009 against Rashad.

That's just too long ago to maintain his position. Too many other guys (like Johny Hendricks, like Renan Barao, like Carlos Condit) have been taking clear wins over bona fide top guys in their divisions recently for Lyoto to have any possible claim of parity with them.
Clearly you like the word "objectively", and I always debate "objectively" other than when talking about BJ Penn, who was the inspirational drive behind my love for MMA, so i sort of always lean towards him and maybe my heart can tend to rake over

Jonny Hendricks is riding the crest of a wave and has momentum, Barao is slightly different circumstance, he is genuinely "elite" in skill-set but lacking in achievement, Hendricks is not and i believe never will be "elite" in skill-set, and St Pierre will absolutely decimate him

Machida has been a UFC champion, in a division housing superstars, and when he was the champion, 205 was unequivocally the elite division in world MMA, to compare Hendricks to somebody like Machida is like comparing Ricky Burns to Miguel Cotto, its ludicrous!

Lets look at his current run of form

Shogun - Loss by KO 1, Shogun at this time was rooted in the top 5 P4P and will go down as probably the #1 or #2 LHW of all time, as it stands, not a great deal of shame in that

Rampage - Loss UD, You my friend are not looking at this objectively, and ill tell you why .......... this was the best version of Rampage since he fought Forrest Griffin IMHO, if you have studied Rampage which i have, its easy to pick the fights he was in shape for, and this was one of them, fleet footed, good movement, no cardio issues, striking was crisp, this was a good version of Rampage, no doubt about it, and Machida beat him 2 rounds to 1!

Couture - Win by KO - Not much to say, other than another showcase of what Machida can do, Randy was a static target and couldn't get his range to apply strategy, therefore it was straight forward for Machida.

Jones - Loss Sub 2 - Machida claims he was ordered not to fight buy his Family doctor due to illness, whatever! he lost decisively to the current champ who is frankly looking rather special! and underlines the word elite

Bader - He has his limits, and yes he's probably B class at best, but ill say this, the way Machida dealt with him underlines his ability, Bader had no business being in the same cage, another straight forward win for him!

All this by the way was preceded by a 15 fight win streak leading to the demolition of Rashad Evans!

Machida is the elite of the sport, he's been a champion and may be a champion again, Hendricks is only just reaching top contender status, and will never be a dominant figure in the WW division, further to that, he will not finish top guys one after the next at the very top level the way Machida has and will do in the future

Im praying for Phil Davis or Alexander Gustaffson to step up and fight him, because they will be surgically picked to shreds, Gustaffson is being haled as the next coming of Anderson Silva, and Davis is is a highly regarded top level fighter who isnt on Machida's list of victims!

Im sorry they dont compare
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:12 PM   #42
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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- Anderson has effectively been undefeated since Dec 2004, he is undefeated in the UFC, undefeated in title fights, holds all the records for consecutive runs, while GSP was knocked out by Matt Serra in the UFC, and so his run of dominance is shorter and far less emphatic. If Anderson had been KO'd by someone of that calibre early on, say Marquardt or Leben, I'd probably have GSP higher now, their respective runs is a factor to take into account (not the most important one, but not to disregarded completely)
All of what you wrote is true, but this part I don't agree with.

We are talking about the current p4p list. Serra beat St-Pierre in April 2007 - more than five years ago. That isn't really too relevant to St-Pierre today. I mean, Jon Jones is top-3 p4p in pretty much everybody's opinion - when Serra KOed GSP, Jones was still more than a year away from making his professional MMA debut. A consensus top-3 p4per who has won 5 title fights has built his entire career since that Serra loss, that's how long ago it was.

Since Serra beat him, GSP has cleaned out a stacked division a couple of times. For years now there hasn't been a question of who The Man is in the stacked WW division - GSP's reign has been extremely emphatic.

As it happens, I rate them Anderson #1, GSP #2 and Jones #3, but that's more about Anderson's finishes and ease of victory rather than his longevity. I think that GSP and Jones have both fought consistently tougher competition, and I reckon a clear victory over Diaz will push GSP to #1 over an inactive Anderson.

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Old 12-23-2012, 05:42 PM   #43
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

1.the spider
everyone else
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:16 PM   #44
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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1.the spider
everyone else

1 Spider
2. Bones
3. GSP


Then we got the rest


Edit - theres a Huge case for GSP being p4p no1 given who hes fought - the guys hes fought have been 20x tougher than the guys Andersons fought


Spider and Bones basically need to fight. They Are the two p4p mma kings, and their weight class is right next to one another lol
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:52 PM   #45
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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1 Spider
2. Bones
3. GSP


Then we got the rest


Edit - theres a Huge case for GSP being p4p no1 given who hes fought - the guys hes fought have been 20x tougher than the guys Andersons fought


Spider and Bones basically need to fight. They Are the two p4p mma kings, and their weight class is right next to one another lol
well if gsp beats diaz and hendricks then yes i cant see why not and yes spider needs to fight bones to determine the real p4p king
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