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Old 12-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #16
red cobra
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Like Maxie Rosenbloom, he fought all the time and stayed in shape. He really didn't need to train that much.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Interestingly enough him and maxis read to be very similar stylistically to me
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Yeah, definitely. Greb's actual MW resume is not that incredible. In comparison to, say, his LHW one which is incredible.
I agree that Greb did his best work at light heavyweight, but I am not going to rank Monzon or Hagler above him just for hiding behind the 160lb limit.

I think that you have to make some allowance for accomplishments above 160lbs, while a fighter is still able to make the middleweight limit, otherwise you are producing a very warped view of greatness.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

The only allowances I make are in terms of head to head and fights that are clearly above the weight tussles.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I agree that Greb did his best work at light heavyweight, but I am not going to rank Monzon or Hagler above him just for hiding behind the 160lb limit.

I think that you have to make some allowance for accomplishments above 160lbs, while a fighter is still able to make the middleweight limit, otherwise you are producing a very warped view of greatness.
If a MW like Greb could at 160 pounds beat LHs as no other MW could do,y
it is a safe bet that he could when REQUIRED to make 160 pounds whip
other top middleweights also...Even when old and past his peak beat Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker,Johnny Wilson, Ted Moore etc all at MW 160 pounds. When the dynamo that was Greb fought LHs it stands to reason that he would not train down to 160 pounds depriving himself when he did not have to. If a Marvin Hagler, a Carlos Monzon, tackled the best lightheavyweights of their time they too would fight at closer to their walk around weights...Greb at about 5ft8" when trained properly, was a natural 160 pounder when required...He had what no OTHER MW had including
Monzon and Hagler, one requisite that they did not have to beat the big boys, namely blazing hand and foot speed and phenominal stamina that
put him on offense and his opponents on defense...Along with a cast iron chin that took occasional shots on the whiskers from bigger boys,and shake it off. At his best you couldn't outhustle him and you couldn't kayo him...
When in his prime he fought one year 45 bouts and won them ALL...
What MW in history could fight every one of Greb's 300 fight career and
be as successful as him.? No one. Give the man his due. He earned it...
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:28 PM   #21
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
If a MW like Greb could at 160 pounds beat LHs as no other MW could do,y
it is a safe bet that he could when REQUIRED to make 160 pounds whip
other top middleweights also...Even when old and past his peak beat Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker,Johnny Wilson, Ted Moore etc all at MW 160 pounds. When the dynamo that was Greb fought LHs it stands to reason that he would not train down to 160 pounds depriving himself when he did not have to. If a Marvin Hagler, a Carlos Monzon, tackled the best lightheavyweights of their time they too would fight at closer to their walk around weights...Greb at about 5ft8" when trained properly, was a natural 160 pounder when required...He had what no OTHER MW had including
Monzon and Hagler, one requisite that they did not have to beat the big boys, namely blazing hand and foot speed and phenominal stamina that
put him on offense and his opponents on defense...Along with a cast iron chin that took occasional shots on the whiskers from bigger boys,and shake it off. At his best you couldn't outhustle him and you couldn't kayo him...
When in his prime he fought one year 45 bouts and won them ALL...
What MW in history could fight every one of Greb's 300 fight career and
be as successful as him.? No one. Give the man his due. He earned it...
I give bob Fitzsimmons a better than average chance of not only doing exactly what Greb did, but of actually doing better, certainly of winning more fights by KO. And i dont think that Greb could have done what Fitz did (corbett would ultimately be too good) . But this in no way belittles Greb in my mind.

Of the above, I like Monzon, but can see why others would like Greb or possibly even Hagler.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:34 PM   #22
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

one major diff though FITZ was a much bigger man than Greb, technically a L-HW cum heavy...
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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one major diff though FITZ was a much bigger man than Greb, technically a L-HW cum heavy...
I would have to agree.

Fitzsimmons, Walker, Jones, Toney, all outgrew the mw while they were beating up the bigger guys.

Greb fundamentally didn't, and that should secure his position as the #1 all time middleweight.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I agree that Greb did his best work at light heavyweight, but I am not going to rank Monzon or Hagler above him just for hiding behind the 160lb limit.

I think that you have to make some allowance for accomplishments above 160lbs, while a fighter is still able to make the middleweight limit, otherwise you are producing a very warped view of greatness.
What's wrong with staying in your natural weight division and cleaning it out?
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:49 PM   #25
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

I say Hagler. The era and even who he fought before being champion. A complete fighter and a professional.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I agree that Greb did his best work at light heavyweight, but I am not going to rank Monzon or Hagler above him just for hiding behind the 160lb limit.

I think that you have to make some allowance for accomplishments above 160lbs, while a fighter is still able to make the middleweight limit, otherwise you are producing a very warped view of greatness.
Ill allow a couple of pounds above for non title fights buy grebs work as a lhw should have no impact on his greatness as a mw.

Otherwise it is like saying Jones victory over Ruiz should help his lhw greatness.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
What's wrong with staying in your natural weight division and cleaning it out?
Nothing, provided you have no aspirations to be the greatest in a historical sense!

Some people look at how every track record in running has been broken, and use that to ar5gue that modern fighters are likely to be superior to those of the past.

The track records in boxing were set by people like Bob Fitzsimmons, Harry Greb and Joe Louis, and they are proving pretty darn hard to shift!
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:55 PM   #28
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Ill allow a couple of pounds above for non title fights buy grebs work as a lhw should have no impact on his greatness as a mw.

Otherwise it is like saying Jones victory over Ruiz should help his lhw greatness.
It absolutely should, because he went on to make light heavyweight!
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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one major diff though FITZ was a much bigger man than Greb, technically a L-HW cum heavy...
I think that he was bigger than Greb, Not necessarilly Monzon or Hagler though. But it is a good point i had not considered.

It is a good point regarding Greb and Fitz, but how does this effect Greb's greatness at middleweight. Does it increase it because of his smaller stature and difficulty he overcome, or does it put him at a disability because he has to overcome the size issue, even at middleweight.

Does anyone have a tale of the tape handy for any of these guys. Might be interesting to compare reach etc.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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It absolutely should, because he went on to make light heavyweight!
But the fight was in the hw division.

We view divisional rankings completely differently it appears.
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