Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

[thistle1]

you can never just solely look at the weight when a multi-divisional fighter moved through the divisions. Len Harvey for example fought from FLYweight to HW, you'd be kind of silly to call Len anything below MW, and likewise you can't rightfully call him a HW either - Harvey was a TRUE L-HW.

so was Fitz, RJJ too, Toney was a MW/S-MW and so the story goes for ALL fighters.

YES Greb gets KUDO's for everything above MW, because thats what he truly was, doesn't matter about him fighting above 160 in catchweight contest before he 'actually' becomes a L-HW, because MW is no longer possible to meet. Again the same is true for all fighters and they should only be ranked at their true best weight, anything above only adds to their ability and/or greatness!

[Nate 2011]

By a very close vote I would say Marvelous Marvin Hagler is pound for pound the greatsest Middleweight champion of all time with Sugar Ray Robinson coming in at a close neck breathing second place and then Stanley Ketchel and Mel Greb coming in at a tie for third place with Carlos Monzon afterwards. However once "The Executioner" Bernard Hopkins retires for good I might be slightly tempted to place him where I currently still have Monzon at on my personal list of all time Middleweight greats, champion or non-champion.

[thistle1]

Originally Posted by Nate 2011

By a very close vote I would say Marvelous Marvin Hagler is pound for pound the greatsest Middleweight champion of all time with Sugar Ray Robinson coming in at a close neck breathing second place and then Stanley Ketchel and Mel Greb coming in at a tie for third place with Carlos Monzon afterwards. However once "The Executioner" Bernard Hopkins retires for good I might be slightly tempted to place him where I currently still have Monzon at on my personal list of all time Middleweight greats, champion or non-champion.

and this is why acheivement based ratings are absolutely inaccurate & impossible, Hopkins is no where near the calibre of the afore mentioned fighters nor dozens of their great peers either.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

But the fight was in the hw division.

We view divisional rankings completely differently it appears.

It would seem so.

I cannot get my head around the idea that greatness is hiding behind your weight limit, and using it to avoid meeting bigger fighters, or ensure the maximum weight advantage against fighters from a lower weight class.

The idea of Monzon or Hagler being greater than Greb, seems incomprehensible!

[janitor]

Originally Posted by thistle1

and this is why acheivement based ratings are absolutely inaccurate & impossible, Hopkins is no where near the calibre of the afore mentioned fighters nor dozens of their great peers either.

I might take some flak for this, but I honestly think that Hopkins has surpassed Hagler and Monzon!

You lived to see it happen!

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by janitor

It would seem so.

I cannot get my head around the idea that greatness is hiding behind your weight limit, and using it to avoid meeting bigger fighters, or ensure the maximum weight advantage against fighters from a lower weight class.

The idea of Monzon or Hagler being greater than Greb, seems incomprehensible!

I'm not talking overall greatness I'm talking divsional greatness.

Greb was a much greater lhw and p4p fighter than both Hagler and monzon. But within the mw division he didnt achieve as much and arguably has an inferior resume.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by janitor

It would seem so.

I cannot get my head around the idea that greatness is hiding behind your weight limit, and using it to avoid meeting bigger fighters, or ensure the maximum weight advantage against fighters from a lower weight class.

The idea of Monzon or Hagler being greater than Greb, seems incomprehensible!

J, I feel the same way. Frustrated... Taking the records of a Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler, truly not any better than a Freddie Steele for example and without rhyme or reason choosing without hesitation these two fine middleweights over the surreal career of Harry Greb who accomplished 3 times greater deeds in a 300 bout career ,beating everyone, everywhere
anytime tells me to fold my cards as their choices are based on personal likes and not onwhat they accompished...I would burn my record books but they were lost in Hurricane Sandy...Oh well !

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I'm not talking overall greatness I'm talking divsional greatness.

Greb was a much greater lhw and p4p fighter than both Hagler and monzon. But within the mw division he didnt achieve as much and arguably has an inferior resume.

So the recipe for glory in the middleweight division, is to hide behind the middleweight limit, and fight the occasional welterweight or bulked up lightweight?

Do that, and you are the greatest legend in the divisions history.

A guy who beat up the light heavyweight champion while he was fighting at middleweight, should be proud to have fought alongside you?

[Shake]

Some fighters are uniquely suited to jump weights. A chin and punching power help. Monzon was one of the best at fighting tall, and by giving up his height advantage, he'd be giving up his winning boxing style. Not saying he couldn't have accomplished things at LHW, but some fighters sacrifice more than others moving up.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I'm not talking overall greatness I'm talking divsional greatness.

Greb was a much greater lhw and p4p fighter than both Hagler and monzon. But within the mw division he didnt achieve as much and arguably has an inferior resume.

Ok .so Greb was better than Monzon or Hagler when he weighed a few pounds over 160, but when he went to 160 he became by your standards inferior to both of them... Can you not understand that he fought when he HAD to go under 160 lbs, a Flowers, a Mickey Walker, and others one year before he retired ? Greb when he had to and with but one eye as a MW
would have outsped, outfought any version of Monzon or Hagler at 160, 165 or whatever...L , truly I don't understand your logic...?

[Mod-Mania]

Carlos Monzon imo

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I'm not talking overall greatness I'm talking divsional greatness.

Greb was a much greater lhw and p4p fighter than both Hagler and monzon. But within the mw division he didnt achieve as much and arguably has an inferior resume.

Inferior resume as a MW.? Tell me luf who did Monzon or Hagler beat as a MW that was as good as a Mike Gibbons, or the prime Mickey Walker when Harry Greb was old and 1 year from retiring ? The Mickey Walker that utterly destroyed Tommy Milligan in London was as good if not better H2H than Monzon or Hagler...And soon after tough Mickey went after heavyweights with great success such as Paolino Uzcudun, Johnny Risko, Jack Sharkey,230 pound Bearcat Wright, Maxie Rosenbloom, powerful Paul Berlenbach etc. And you ask who Greb beat as a MW ?

[lufcrazy]

delete

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by janitor

So the recipe for glory in the middleweight division, is to hide behind the middleweight limit, and fight the occasional welterweight or bulked up lightweight?

Do that, and you are the greatest legend in the divisions history.

A guy who beat up the light heavyweight champion while he was fighting at middleweight, should be proud to have fought alongside you?

Well yes if you spend your career in a divsion you are more likely to be the greatest in that divsion.

If your time in that division encompasses greater achievements than anyone else in that divsion you have a valid reason to be ranked above them.

Of course if you secure great victories in another division that counts towards your greatness in another division.

I'm sorry if your post was intended to be ironic and I missed it.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

J, I feel the same way. Frustrated... Taking the records of a Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler, truly not any better than a Freddie Steele for example and without rhyme or reason choosing without hesitation these two fine middleweights over the surreal career of Harry Greb who accomplished 3 times greater deeds in a 300 bout career ,beating everyone, everywhere
anytime tells me to fold my cards as their choices are based on personal likes and not onwhat they accompished...I would burn my record books but they were lost in Hurricane Sandy...Oh well !

You are far too an emotional poster to have any debate with.

Devolving inton accusations of personal bias is a bit low, even for you.

I'm sure as a white guy from north England I have every reason to favour the Philly fighter or the Argentine so you must be spot on.

Don't waste your time replying to my previous post, this petty insult exchange interests me not.