Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

J, I feel the same way. Frustrated... Taking the records of a Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler, truly not any better than a Freddie Steele for example and without rhyme or reason choosing without hesitation these two fine middleweights over the surreal career of Harry Greb who accomplished 3 times greater deeds in a 300 bout career ,beating everyone, everywhere
anytime tells me to fold my cards as their choices are based on personal likes and not onwhat they accompished...I would burn my record books but they were lost in Hurricane Sandy...Oh well !

You are far too an emotional poster to have any debate with.

Devolving inton accusations of personal bias is a bit low, even for you.

I'm sure as a white guy from north England I have every reason to favour the Philly fighter or the Argentine so you must be spot on.

Don't waste your time replying to my previous post, this petty insult exchange interests me not.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

You are far too an emotional poster to have any debate with.

Devolving inton accusations of personal bias is a bit low, even for you.

I'm sure as a white guy from north England I have every reason to favour the Philly fighter or the Argentine so you must be spot on.

Don't waste your time replying to my previous post, this petty insult exchange interests me not.

sir, I can live with not responding to you. By the way when did I insult you? And what has race to do with this whole subject ? You have a right to your opinions but not to your own facts. If as you implied Harry Greb was a better P4P fighter than Monzon or Hagler [in your own words] than he was a better MW as that is what Harry Greb is defined as by historians...
And yes I will NOT waste my time with you as u WISH. Sayonara!

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

sir, I can live with not responding to you. By the way when did I insult you? And what has race to do with this whole subject ? You have a right to your opinions but not to your own facts. If as you implied Harry Greb was a better P4P fighter than Monzon or Hagler [in your own words] than he was a better MW as that is what Harry Greb is defined as by historians...
And yes I will NOT waste my time with you as u WISH. Sayonara!

Declaring any pick for Hagler as being warped by personal bias. I'd like to think I'm a bit more objective than that.

I'm saying he achieved less in the mw division than Hagler did but achieved more overall than Hagler did.

I believe you do Greb a disservice by thinking of him as just a MW. It is my humble opinion he was even greater as a LHW.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Declaring any pick for Hagler as being warped by personal bias. I'd like to think I'm a bit more objective than that.

I'm saying he achieved less in the mw division than Hagler did but achieved more overall than Hagler did.

I believe you do Greb a disservice by thinking of him as just a MW. It is my humble opinion he was even greater as a LHW.

Did less than Hagler did as a middleweight ? I think not. Just get a copy of "the Fearless Harry Greb", and you will see the terrific middleweights that Greb licked...Dozens of the top MWS of his early and middle years...And some of Britain's finest also...He loved to fight so he would tackle bigger men to keep busy, any size, any style, any colour to keep active....But when required he trained more to get under 160 to defend his crown...
The thread reads "Greatest MW once and for all", not who achieved more>
And Greb's MW challengers were as good if not better than you think...
Happy Holidays...

[Surf-Bat]

Greb beat middleweights in over the weight matches. People were able to distinguish between that and a true light-heavyweight contest then.

If memory serves, Jeff Smith weighed around 165 pounds for their 5/19/17 fight. But nobody considered him a "light-heavy" at that time. Just a middleweight who didn't need to meet any weight requirements.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by Theron

I made a thread asking about a fantasy fight about Monzon vs Hagler but a lot of people seemed to disagree with me that Harry Greb was the greatest Middleweight of all time which i definatley think he is, if he's not who is to you?

The Criteria i picked Greb on was pretty much just amount of quality opponents beaten as we can't actually watch him fight but we can see his record of beating 18 future present or past champions, defeating men in higher weight classes than himself, i love this quote about Greb it sums up why i think he's the greatest middleweight ever
“Greb may have been the greatest fighter, pound-for-pound, who ever lived. Certainly, he was among the top 2 or 3. He combined the speed of Ray Robinson, the durability of Jim Jeffries, the stamina of Henry Armstrong, and the unbridled ferocity of Stanley Ketchel with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of sport. At his peak, he was unbeatable, defeating virtually every middleweight, light heavyweight and heavyweight of his generation. A great, great fighter.”

once and for all....

[salsanchezfan]

This whole thread.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

Greb beat middleweights in over the weight matches. People were able to distinguish between that and a true light-heavyweight contest then.

If memory serves, Jeff Smith weighed around 165 pounds for their 5/19/17 fight. But nobody considered him a "light-heavy" at that time. Just a middleweight who didn't need to meet any weight requirements.

I agree with that. I give a few pounds leeway fir non title fights.

He was still better as a lhw for me.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Did less than Hagler did as a middleweight ? I think not. Just get a copy of "the Fearless Harry Greb", and you will see the terrific middleweights that Greb licked...Dozens of the top MWS of his early and middle years...And some of Britain's finest also...He loved to fight so he would tackle bigger men to keep busy, any size, any style, any colour to keep active....But when required he trained more to get under 160 to defend his crown...
The thread reads "Greatest MW once and for all", not who more>
And Greb's MW challengers were as good if not better than you think...
Happy Holidays...

achievement is a measure of greatness, as is resume and skillset. I can't argue Greb above Hagler on any of those 3 criteria under the mw limit.

Now if you're trying to argue who the greatest boxer to ever compete in the mw divsion is, well I'd say Greb is above Hagler in that category but below ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong.

[Colonel Sanders]

Definitely not Hagler for me. He never impressed me that much.

I vote Monzon.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

This whole thread.

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders

Definitely not Hagler for me. He never impressed me that much.

I vote Monzon.

Hagler never impressed you? Seriously? What about him didn't you like?

Not trying to be a smart-ass, genuinely curious. To me he's one of the toughest, most well-rounded fighters in recent history.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

Hagler never impressed you? Seriously? What about him didn't you like?

Not trying to be a smart-ass, genuinely curious. To me he's one of the toughest, most well-rounded fighters in recent history.

I understand, I usually raise eyebrows when I say Hagler never impressed me. To be honest, I have a hard time picking precisely why I feel that way about him.

I guess he could be kinda sloppy, offensively and defensively. His offense didn't look that purposeful all the time. Sometimes he boxed when he needed to fight, sometimes he fought when he needed to box. He could be kinda mechanical, like he's not thinking and setting his opponent up as much as just going through the motions. I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with him, or me.

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders

I understand, I usually raise eyebrows when I say Hagler never impressed me. To be honest, I have a hard time picking precisely why I feel that way about him.

I guess he could be kinda sloppy, offensively and defensively. His offense didn't look that purposeful all the time. Sometimes he boxed when he needed to fight, sometimes he fought when he needed to box. He could be kinda mechanical, like he's not thinking and setting his opponent up as much as just going through the motions. I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with him, or me.

No, that's fair. I'm the same way with Vicente Saldivar. For the life of me, I just don't see this greatness everyone else gushes about. On film, he seems decidedly ordinary to me. I know he's great and the problem lies more with me than anything, but I just don't see it at all.

[PhillyPhan69]

Hagler
Monzon
Greb

for me....

But kinda like LW

Leonard
Gans
Duran

there is so little seperating them that I wouldn't find fault with another order, and have changed mine on occasion.