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Old 12-21-2012, 06:23 PM   #766
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Good to see you Stormy. Was reading through this thread and remembered your input. Top drawer post again.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:53 PM   #767
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Much thanks Flea Man. Likewise, always enjoy reading your posts. Incredible knowledge regarding western boxing.

I agree with yah as well regarding Samart being the most talented fighter ever. Watched a clip of him sparring muay thai with Malaipet, I think he must've been in his mid to late 40's, and if he hadn't trained seriously for at least a decade, he still looked amazing.

Fun to speculate on how far he could have gone(both muay thai and western boxing) had he demonstrated strong training discipline in the second half of his career.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:30 AM   #768
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

He liked a smoke. From what I've read he always larked about in training but yes I agree; went right off the boil at some point and it definitely affected his output.

Still, a real natural.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:04 PM   #769
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Sombat seems my kinda' character to be honest Shame there appears to be little footage of him.
He was fun to be around but always felt a little edgy. When I posted a fight of Colalek Sor. Thanikul (Sombat’s brother) on Youtube some guy contacted me to say he’d heard Sombat was dead. I asked how he died but the guy was a bit vague and mentioned something about a heart condition. He did seem to know the gym and the Soi, but came across a bit too vague and Sombat would only be in his mud 40s now. Anyway, when I get back in January I’m planning to go back down there to see what I can find and who I can bump into in terms of the gym since it’s closed. Who knows I may find the great man alive & kickin, and he may even have a load of his fights on tapes……..

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy0 View Post
Boran,

What are you thoughts than on stylists such as Put Lorlek, Samart, Chartchai, Namkabuan, Boonlai, just to name a few, who were from the golden era, or even before, such as Put Lorlek, who seemed to be very well rounded technical fighters; fimeu I think is the term.

Are they anomalies? I agree completely that today's fighters on the whole are much more technical/well rounded, and that the skill set across all of the Thailand gyms seem to be more homogenous in nature, with fighters tailoring their particular style to their frame/innate abilities.

However I do think those fighters mentioned above, plus a slew of others from the golden era could hang with the current generation of top fighters.

Also, thanks for putting up the Rambo vs Pirotnoi fight! Hell of a battle!

stormy
Hey Stormy good to hear from you.

Gla you enjoyed Rambo vs Pirotnoi, great wasn’t it! Surprised the full fight wasn’t up on Youtube already.

That’s right, “Muay Fimeu” – “ Technical Boxing”. And yep in a way I think a lot of those greats we all constantly refer to form the Golden Age and before, are anomalies, that’s why they still shine so bright and will forever cast their godlike shadows over Muay Thai. Those guys weren’t the norm, they stood out as naturally gifted & technically graceful fighters who dominated in an age of very very tough super conditioned brutal specialist who were capable of walking through the Devil’s minefield of hellfire just to land a single shot. If you think about fighters that are genuinely considered to be the biggest stand outs with the exception of Diesel Noi they are the very technical allrounders like Poot, Samart, Somluck and now Seanchai. Sure there are hundreds of greats that were tough tough specialist like Chamuekpet etc but it’s the technical allrounders that seem to constantly come out top in most people’s top ten lists of each era not the brutal and possibly more exciting specialists, who I actually prefer to watch. I guess it’s not too dissimilar to Floyd Jr in his current era of boxing, a super technical & naturally gifted fighter just head and shoulders above the rest.

When I said the modern Thai MT fighter was more technical than the specialists of the golden age I was talking in a general sense meaning most fighters now are more well rounded and tend to rely less on their ace card, but I didn’t mean they were necessarily better fighters for being more technical and well rounded. You have to remember Muay Thai in the golden age was at its zenith in terms of popularity and exposure inside Thailand. The top fighters were huge household names, earning big money, with millions tuning in and the stadiums overcrowded to capacity, bursting with the intense excitement and anticipation only a mega MT super fight could bring. Millions of people asking “Can Wangchainoi really beat Samart?”. My point isthese guys were huge stars with all eyes on them earning big baht. That’s attractive and like any popular sport you not only have huge participation but also a high level of retention especially in a third world country where utter poverty is the norm and success and wealth nothing but a pipe dream. This meant the guys stayed fighting longer into their twenties so developed into solid mature pros and hence were physically stronger and possibly more experienced than your average modern fighter who seems to be getting younger and younger and having shorter and shorter careers unless they become top tier fighters.

I also think the environment was more competitive and tougher back then. The gyms were full of more fighters and hence created a super competitive environment, Things were rougher and tougher in an oldkool sense and they had few distractions like young kids and teenagers do now. The internet, computers, satellite TV & increasing international travel have changed the world and given the poorest of the poor ideas they would never have contemplated before. Young fighters realise at a young age there are other things out there other than Muay Thai, even though they may not have the means or the access they still have ideas planted in their heads, that maybe they didn’t have before. In short their eyes have been opened and they are less ignorant of the world than they used to be, which makes them harder to manipulate. We’ve seen a rise in fighters questioning the natural order of things in the Thai boxing world, dissatisfied fighters tying to renegotiate the terms of contract, things that were unthinkable and suicidal not to many years ago. Don’t get me wrong things definitely need to change in Thailand, for far too long the fighter has had no voice and has been treated little more than cattle by the industry, but these are all things that have possibly contributed to slightly “weaken" the sport & fighters of today. In short they were, tougher, hungrier and more focused mofos back then. I’d still put my money on a Golden Age fighter over a modern fighter any day of the week.

All that being said the training is still tougher than anywhere in the world, the scene is still more competitive than anywhere in the world, the fights are still better than anywhere in the world, and the Thais are still the undisputed masters of their own sport and probably always will be.

By the way two mythical matchups I’ve been thinking of recently that I’d love to see:

Poot Lorlek vs Seanchai - Similar styles, what a chess match, that really would put the “Fimeu” in Muay Fimeu!!!

Anuwat vs Chamukpet – A classic hands vs knees match up, forget war, that’s a full on holocaust.

Oh oh oh and for a bit of fun how about a prime Bovy vs a Prime Coban.......or a prime Samart vs a Prime Somluck…..Actually this is fun, now I’ve started I could do this all night………the list is never ending…….

Last edited by boranbkk; 12-23-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:38 AM   #770
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Have you seen the footage of Dieselnoi training on YouTube? There is another fighter training on it as well, on me iPhone so can't really post it.

It's the one where Dieselnoi is second on.

Is it weird that I'm scared of a guy from the past? It's horrible to think this machine existed!

Who would be the best guy to beat Dieselnoi in his prime? Would Poot be able to navigate him and stay away from his clinch or could Dieselnoi use his kicks to stop Poot getting anything going anyway?

Dieselnoi is of course a fighter facilitated by his physical gifts. Poot was used to being the smaller guy (Saenchai as well; what about him?!) and was a rounded technician, and gifted with hands and feet.

You guys give me a technical breakdown how it would go down between these two in their primes? Also, am I right in thinking Dieselnoi is a weight below Poot? Poot was usually at ten stone whereas in boxing terms Diesel is more like a lightweight??? Help me out here.

If not Lorlek who would you pick to survive and get enough done to beat the monster?

I'll say it again, Monzon of Muay Thai was Dieselnoi. Has that presence about him, as well as some fairly contrived stylistic similarities mainly to further my own enjoyment of the theory

Boran great Poot footage BTW. As I've essentially seen him outbox Saensak I have no idea why he didn't turn over with decent success. Obviously Saensak had certain physical attributes (hands, head, lungs) that allowed him a head start in terms of turning over but I'd love to have seen Poot re-imagined as a Sahaprom-esque general in the late 70s light welterweight division

Last edited by Flea Man; 12-24-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:42 AM   #771
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

@BoranBKK Samart would clown Somluk. Beautiful fight to watch but even forcing myself to totally eliminate his last fight out of my head and focus on how breathtaking he was at his best, Samart was even more of a phenom IMO.

Khamsing would be a bit naturally bigger though would he not?
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:20 AM   #772
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Thanks for the great response Boran!

I am a big fan of 'muay fimeu' stylists and for the most part, the golden age era fimeu tend to be at the top of my favorite lists.

With respect to how technology is changing culture in Thailand, I will hope that with a paradigm shift in how the promoters and gamblers influence the sport, and proper investment and promotion, they will be able to make muay thai popular and hyper competitive again. Doubtful, but one can be an optimist.

Interesting fighters for what if matches!

I'd give the nod to Saenchai, just barely, with a decision win. He's definitely a bit smaller than Poot, but I think he's the more well rounded fighter and he's dealt with larger opponents before, although never the combo of size with Poot Lorleks skill.

Anuwat vs Chamukpet, totally going with Chamuekpet. Chamuekpet is TOUGH! Nine stadium titles! That is insane! Brutal knees/clinch, iron chin. I just can't see Anuwat taking this. Anuwat is a come forward fighter dependent on his hands, and I don't ever remember Anuwat demonstrating superior clinch abilities. Chamkeupet would take it.

I think Samart would take Somluck via decision. Can't make a strong argument for it, just biased as Samart is one of my favorite fighters ever in any combat sport. They are both IMMENSELY talented though, both standing a clear head above most in the history of the sport, from a purely technical standpoint.
I do think that Samart was more physically gifted than Somluck, his speed and power is even now incredible to witness. There are moments where he gets incredible leverage on his shots and I have no idea how the hell he was able to produce that from the position he was in at that moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Have you seen the footage of Dieselnoi training on YouTube? There is another fighter training on it as well, on me iPhone so can't really post it.

It's the one where Dieselnoi is second on.
The clip that I've seen, there are three fighters training. The first I don't know, the second is Dieselnoi, and the third is Chamukpet.

I've yet to see any clips of a fighter on the pads that matches the power of Dieselnoi in that clip. I hope that trainer got paid well, cause those knees were sickeningly powerful.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:10 AM   #773
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Scary stuff and you're right, I Forgot about the stuff after Dieselnoi, just re-watched and there's more!

But I agree, scary, scary stuff.
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:42 AM   #774
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Chamukpet looks like a machine in that same clip. He's got great power in his kicks and knees; not quite the level of Dieselnoi with respect to knees, but his overall work drive/intensity and consistency over the course of the round he's training in is amazing.

If that's how Chamukpet trains all the time, I'm not surprised he's a 9 time stadium belt holder; 5 Lumpinee and 4 Rajadamnern, I believe.

Comparing Monzon to Dieselnoi is spot on. If I remember correctly, and I actually think I read it somewhere in this thread, Dieselnoi was actually stripped of his stadium belt at a given weight class cause he was so dominant.

Samart clowns him though in the only clip available of them in the ring together; an exhibition/glorified sparring match. It may have been posted in this thread before, but I'm linking it again below:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQZBDKDx8bY[/ame]

That being said, I do know that Dieselnoi defeated Samart when they actually fought for with a title on the line.
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:46 AM   #775
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Yeah, I've spoken about it before but I have about as much of a gist of it as you do.

Would be great to see that weeks Muay Lok paper Dieselnoi overpowered Samart in the clinch and used his knees to win a decision is all I have.
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:46 AM   #776
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Don't you guys eat turkey?!?!

Great posts fellas. Itching to respond, but in the iPhone, family, baby etc. etc and every time I pick it up angry looks from the little lady!

I don't know how much I'd pay if some one offered me a tape of the Kompong fight....... To see the mighty Deiselnoi sparked and how it went down!!!!!!!
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:22 AM   #777
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Only heard a bit about it, what do you know about it?

I'm not sure but didn't Dieselnoi get stopped in a boxing match as well? I might be totally wrong there (mashed) as you wouldn't expect him to trade off his hands which were seemingly rarely used (for obvious reasons when you've got those knees)

And hey, my dinner ain't ready yet
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:47 PM   #778
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Damn, I need to separate some free time to read those last posts......
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:35 PM   #779
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

There’s a lot of good stuff to respond to, so I’ll try get to it all. When I mentioned the match ups I was talking in a P4P sense, not really thinking of literal weight differences just the interesting character and style match ups that we’d get, the truth is though that most of them have shared weight divisions at some point in their careers albeit not their primes.

I agree Samart decisions Somrak in a showboating masterclass of thrilling technical ability.

Chamuekpet out machos Anuwat…….just, in a war of attrition, one for the ages.

Coban KOs the granite chinned Bovy in a short Hearns Hagler type war that goes nuclear form the 1st second of the 1st round.

The above being said, every name there is a top tier ATG legend with maybe the exception of Bovy, but due to his iron chin and his ridiculous sized heart you couldn’t really go against the “loser” in any of the above bouts pulling something out the bag.

Poot vs Seanchai, hmmmm……this is where it gets interesting especially if you combine it with Flea’s question about who beats Dieselnoi. Stormy reckons Seanchai does Poot in a close one, that’s probably right, but boy is it a pick em fight. On paper Seanchai possibly has the edge being a southy with a better clinch game making him more rounded as Stormy mentioned. The thing with Poot and Seanchai is they look their awesome best when under a bit of pressure moving backwards, using their agility, ring vision & unpredictably brilliant rear leg in a deceivingly defensive yet pin point accurate offence. Their nimble foot work, high ring IQ and superbly versatile rear leg are the key factors they both share, but that also makes them great. On face value you might say their styles aren’t so similar, but when you strip it away and look at what makes them win, it’s the same basic approach of using nimble footwork to gain superior positioning to enable a good angle to counter or attack primarily with the rear leg. They both like to sprinkle their work with pretty tasty hands and also both work of their toes a lot which is somewhat unusual in the solid flat footed world of Thai MT, which almost gives the impression of both fighters being off balance when they kick, making them look like dainty ballerinas in some exchanges. Look at the clips and some similarities are scary, compare Poot @ 1.07 with Seanchai @ 0:18:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMP6Ddljyhc[/ame]
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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT9ILukIXCA[/ame]


Now you see where I’m coming from and can you see where we’re going with the Dieselnoi question?

Now, this is where Dieslnoi enters the picture. “Who couda beaten Dieselnoi?” Hmmmmmm, well we know Vicharnnoi, Kaopong & Padetsuk did, infact he was beaten 10 times (110-10-2-40KOs), but we’ve never seen those fights or really know how they went down except the Padetsuk win was on cuts and controversial. So what we know is…….he could be beat by quality. Well Poot and Seanchai are supersized servings of platinum coated quality and we also know a knee specialist has to walk forward in straight lines through a shower of hellfire to try to smother, spoil and grab to set his rockets for launching. But what if once you walked through the hellfire, thought you’d smothered your prey against the ropes, set your weapons ready to fire and…….well………no one was there? Look again at the two bits of the above clips I picked out and the italic sentence of the previous paragraph: “Their nimble foot work, high ring IQ and superbly versatile rear leg are the key factors they both share, but that also make them great.” See where we’re going with this?

Hmmmmmm, so now we need a blueprint (don’t worry I’m getting to the point!). On page 46 of this thread Yaca and Stormy posted a couple of fights featuring a rangy tall ATG knee specialist with good kicks, Lamnamoon Sor. Sumalee. aka ‘‘Telephone pole knees”. In both cases Lamnamoon lost. In the first fight against Kaensak Sor. Ploenchit, Lamnamoon lost to a perfect gameplan played out by a nimble ATG fighter, a possible blueprint for our Dieselenoi scenario? In the second against Karuhat, ATG Karuhat made a meal of it, but in the end did what needed to be done. Lamnamoon was more than just a knee specialist, but was he as good as Dieselnoi? Who knows, it’s another hypothetical, but common wisdom would suggest maybe not quite as good. Let me quote again what I wrote when breaking down those two fights:

Quote:
I know like Diesel Noi, Lamnamoon is a bit special and more than just a knee specialist, but I think to be honest most knee specialist are pretty one dimensional, you know what they’re gonna bring once the shit hits the fan. They tend to be very very strong, durable and relentless. Hard to handle, walking through hellfire, spoiling & smothering until they can grab you & break you with sharp powerful knees, usually making for an exhausting & hellish fight. The “how to control a rampaging taller badass Thai ATG knee specialist” blueprint must be one of the toughest MT scenarios to implement, but was cleverly put into effect, particularly in the Kaensak fight.

Knee specialist always want to close the range and walk you down as soon as possible, and hence are constantly advancing with their body tilted forward, their head ahead of their hips for power and balance with their fists held slightly higher and further away from their head and body than a more traditional all round MT fighter would have, basically because they wanna grab you. This slightly different hand positioning and constant forward movement was viciously exploited by both Kaensak and Karuhat with short, cutting elbows down the middle as well as uppercuts and hooks. Both of the smaller guys were forced to fight Lamnamoon on the back foot, and this for me is where the crucial but slight difference between Karuhat’s and Kensak’s handling of the fight is highlighted.

To me Karuhat made the fight into more of a war than it had to be, by holding his ground at times, exchanging and choosing on occasion to clinch with a quality bigger and stronger man, a lot of Thai bravado was on display. But to me the biggest “mistake” Karuhat made was when he backed up he did it in straight lines. Now, Thais spend hours each week pacing up and down a gym in straight lines working their knees and constantly going forward. This is done as a basic warm up, a shadow box routine pre sparring, a round filler if there is no room on a bag or pads, it’s basically done at every spare opportunity. So Karuhat was making life easier for Lamnamoon to deploy his greatest weapons to maximum effect by retreating in straight lines allowing him to walk in, grab Karuhat and get set to launch powerful knees, hence making a harder night of it. Kaensak never allowed that. He used great footwork to back up and then side step with all sorts of angles rather than backing up in a straight line as Karuhat did, thus not allowing Lamnamoon to walk in and get set to throw his knees, basically negating Lamnamoon’s ace cards.
Aha…..you see what I’m getting at now? Everything that can negate a knee specialist’s advantage is Poot and Seanchai’s bread and butter: fighting on angles whilst retreating, mixing rear leg counters with hooks, uppercuts and elbows around the slightly spread hands of the knee specialist, the superior ring IQ that enables you to stick to a plan for the duration and not stand and trade etc. etc. OK, Lamnamoon isn’t quite on the level off Dieselnoi and doesn’t quite have the physical advantages, but Kaensak isn’t quite on the level of Poot or Seanchai either so for me the blueprint at least in theory coupled with Poot’s and Seanchai’s natural style of fighting is valid. If I was sending either of them in against Deiselnoi tomorrow it’s the blueprint I’d use.

In the clip Flea mentions of Chamuekpet and Deiselnoi training at the Hapalag gym (Don’t think it’s 3 fighters only two, bad quality tape but I’m pretty sure Chamuekpet reappears in a change of shorts and I agree a beast on the pads), you can also kinda see what I mean.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjeA9c6x0QA[/ame]
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The reason Deiselnoi looks so godlike on the pads is (he’s a badass) but mainly his pad man isn’t really moving around, he’s standing right infront of Diesel allowing him to walk straight in and grab the neck to rape him, this wouldn’t happen IF we could successfully implement the above blueprint. The worst thing you can do with a guy like Dieselnoi is just stand in fornt of him and trade or move back in straight lines like Nongkhai did here, you gotta stay smart under pressure, move on angles and stick to the gameplan:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWdmN_zakk8[/ame]

Last edited by boranbkk; 12-25-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:40 PM   #780
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Boran great Poot footage BTW. As I've essentially seen him outbox Saensak I have no idea why he didn't turn over with decent success. Obviously Saensak had certain physical attributes (hands, head, lungs) that allowed him a head start in terms of turning over but I'd love to have seen Poot re-imagined as a Sahaprom-esque general in the late 70s light welterweight division
Flea you asked why Poot didn’t turn over to boxing with more success, looks like possible money matters a la Buakaw vs Por Pramuk reared their ugly head again:
Quote:
Poot eventually had to turn to international boxing because it became hard for him to find a challenger in Thai boxing. And his forte also shone in this new arena. Poot became the Lightweight champion of Rajadamnern Stadium by knocking down Malaithong Sinkhunyok in the seventh round. Stepping up internationally, Poot boxed with various foreign opponents of both regional and world challenger levels, and successfully brought honour to the country. In the World Boxing Council, Poot's name was listed as the 6th challenger in the Lightweight division.

It was most unfortunate that Poot stopped his still rising career at this point. With some unresolved problems, Poot left his camp and became an independent boxer fighting for bets in provincial boxing rings. And as always, he came out the winner despite little preparation for these fights.

Today, he has returned to his hometown in Trang Province, renting out his rubber plantation and is now a fervent fan and patron of ****-fighting."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post

Would be great to see that weeks Muay Lok paper Dieselnoi overpowered Samart in the clinch and used his knees to win a decision is all I have.
Unfortunately no inside pages. (thanks to Noi of Ax):

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