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Old 12-23-2012, 09:42 PM   #46
MaliSlamusrex
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

1. Kim Dong Hyun
2. Myung Ho Bae
3. kang ho kyung
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:55 PM   #47
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Originally Posted by MaliSlamusrex View Post
1. Kim Dong Hyun
2. Myung Ho Bae
3. kang ho kyung
The only logical list so far.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:21 AM   #48
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Stop ****ing with us mate, Chandler is not P4P worthy
Pat Curran>Chandler despite how their respective fights with Alvarez went.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:18 AM   #49
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Clearly you like the word "objectively", and I always debate "objectively" other than when talking about BJ Penn, who was the inspirational drive behind my love for MMA, so i sort of always lean towards him and maybe my heart can tend to rake over

Jonny Hendricks is riding the crest of a wave and has momentum, Barao is slightly different circumstance, he is genuinely "elite" in skill-set but lacking in achievement, Hendricks is not and i believe never will be "elite" in skill-set, and St Pierre will absolutely decimate him

Machida has been a UFC champion, in a division housing superstars, and when he was the champion, 205 was unequivocally the elite division in world MMA, to compare Hendricks to somebody like Machida is like comparing Ricky Burns to Miguel Cotto, its ludicrous!

Lets look at his current run of form

Shogun - Loss by KO 1, Shogun at this time was rooted in the top 5 P4P and will go down as probably the #1 or #2 LHW of all time, as it stands, not a great deal of shame in that

Rampage - Loss UD, You my friend are not looking at this objectively, and ill tell you why .......... this was the best version of Rampage since he fought Forrest Griffin IMHO, if you have studied Rampage which i have, its easy to pick the fights he was in shape for, and this was one of them, fleet footed, good movement, no cardio issues, striking was crisp, this was a good version of Rampage, no doubt about it, and Machida beat him 2 rounds to 1!

Couture - Win by KO - Not much to say, other than another showcase of what Machida can do, Randy was a static target and couldn't get his range to apply strategy, therefore it was straight forward for Machida.

Jones - Loss Sub 2 - Machida claims he was ordered not to fight buy his Family doctor due to illness, whatever! he lost decisively to the current champ who is frankly looking rather special! and underlines the word elite

Bader - He has his limits, and yes he's probably B class at best, but ill say this, the way Machida dealt with him underlines his ability, Bader had no business being in the same cage, another straight forward win for him!

All this by the way was preceded by a 15 fight win streak leading to the demolition of Rashad Evans!

Machida is the elite of the sport, he's been a champion and may be a champion again, Hendricks is only just reaching top contender status, and will never be a dominant figure in the WW division, further to that, he will not finish top guys one after the next at the very top level the way Machida has and will do in the future

Im praying for Phil Davis or Alexander Gustaffson to step up and fight him, because they will be surgically picked to shreds, Gustaffson is being haled as the next coming of Anderson Silva, and Davis is is a highly regarded top level fighter who isnt on Machida's list of victims!

Im sorry they dont compare
You have different criteria to me, and to the vast majority of the MMA world I think.

I agree that Machida is an elite talent, for sure. But that isn't a reason to keep him in the p4p top 10 when his last convincing victory over a top 10 opponent was May 2009, and it's December 2012. I think Sergei Kharitonov would knock out Frank Mir annd Big Nog, but it doesn't mean he takes their place in the top 10, he hasn't beaten a top guy in years either (Overeem in '07).

Form is a critical factor in MMA, you have to give guys the recognition they deserve for going into tough fights and beating the best opponents. While Lyoto has beaten two non top 10 guys, Hendricks has beaten Fitch, Koscheck and Kampmann, Condit has beaten Diaz, Kim and MacDonald, Barao has beaten Faber, Jorgensen and Pickett.

Using my criteria (and I would say, the majority criteria), there is no argument for having Machida above these guys. The difference in quality of opponent and result is too great. And I believe Lyoto is a better fighter than Hendricks or Condit, probably better than Barao too.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:25 AM   #50
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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All of what you wrote is true, but this part I don't agree with.

We are talking about the current p4p list. Serra beat St-Pierre in April 2007 - more than five years ago. That isn't really too relevant to St-Pierre today. I mean, Jon Jones is top-3 p4p in pretty much everybody's opinion - when Serra KOed GSP, Jones was still more than a year away from making his professional MMA debut. A consensus top-3 p4per who has won 5 title fights has built his entire career since that Serra loss, that's how long ago it was.

Since Serra beat him, GSP has cleaned out a stacked division a couple of times. For years now there hasn't been a question of who The Man is in the stacked WW division - GSP's reign has been extremely emphatic.

As it happens, I rate them Anderson #1, GSP #2 and Jones #3, but that's more about Anderson's finishes and ease of victory rather than his longevity. I think that GSP and Jones have both fought consistently tougher competition, and I reckon a clear victory over Diaz will push GSP to #1 over an inactive Anderson.

I don't think there can be much debate over an undefeated champion who finishes fights being more dominant and emphatic than a champion who has been knocked out in the organization?

Condit dropped GSP hard, then laid GnP on him pushing for a finish. All credit to GSP, he showed he is a true champion by fighting through this, but let me ask, when has Anderson ever been floored by a strike and had to last through an opponent trying to TKO him on the deck? Never. He is the more dominant fighter for sure.

And I could not disagree more with your point regarding a win over Nick Diaz meaning GSP overtakes Anderson. That's just silly. Nick is an excellent fighter, but he is coming off a loss and a suspension, and his calibre of opposition has not been as good as the other top guys in his division such as Hendricks and Condit. A win over Diaz proves nothing in a race for p4p#1 spot with Silva, nothing whatsoever. Anderson has plenty of wins over Diaz-level guys (in terms of quality, maybe not profile). It would take something special for GSP to overtake Anderson, such as emphatically finishing Hendricks and the Condit/MacDonald winner back-to-back or something. Another routine UD over another routine challenger is not enough at all, no way.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:44 PM   #51
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

This is all academic, name me one fighter that made a prime Royce Gracie throw in the towel before the bell even rang?

I'll give y'all a clue

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaw8t-wOMEA[/ame]

Dubble H has single handedley eradicated prison rape, he's the GOAT
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:46 PM   #52
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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I don't think there can be much debate over an undefeated champion who finishes fights being more dominant and emphatic than a champion who has been knocked out in the organization?
Time has passed. GSP walked into one huge punch years ago, and was quickly KOed because of it. It was so long ago that GSP won the rematch (by dominant stoppage) the same week that current top-3 p4per Jon Jones made his pro debut.

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Condit dropped GSP hard, then laid GnP on him pushing for a finish. All credit to GSP, he showed he is a true champion by fighting through this, but let me ask, when has Anderson ever been floored by a strike and had to last through an opponent trying to TKO him on the deck? Never. He is the more dominant fighter for sure.
Sonnen dropped him with strikes at least once in the first match. He didn't badly hurt him, but he floored him.

Anderson won both fights against Chael, but he lost 5 rounds out of 7 during them. Has GSP lost 5 completed rounds in his UFC career, let alone lost them in such one-sided fashion as Anderson did against Chael?

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And I could not disagree more with your point regarding a win over Nick Diaz meaning GSP overtakes Anderson. That's just silly. Nick is an excellent fighter, but he is coming off a loss and a suspension, and his calibre of opposition has not been as good as the other top guys in his division such as Hendricks and Condit. A win over Diaz proves nothing in a race for p4p#1 spot with Silva, nothing whatsoever. Anderson has plenty of wins over Diaz-level guys (in terms of quality, maybe not profile). It would take something special for GSP to overtake Anderson, such as emphatically finishing Hendricks and the Condit/MacDonald winner back-to-back or something. Another routine UD over another routine challenger is not enough at all, no way.
First, I agree that Diaz is not the #1 contender. But he is a longtime top-level guy.

Second, wins over Condit and Diaz are better than no fights against MW contenders in the same time period. Anderson last defended his belt in July, and he has no title defence signed yet and no indication that one is coming any time soon.

All that said, I have Anderson #1 p4p as well. But p4p is current - overall career legacy is only part of it. That's why Hendo isn't a current top-5 p4per. And as of December 2012, GSP is defending his belt more often in a deeper division. There's a good argument to be made that GSP is #1 anyway, but if he beats Diaz while Anderson celebrates a year without defending his belt, his case only gets stronger.


Last edited by Haggis McJackass; 12-24-2012 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:30 AM   #53
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

Ronda Rousey will break my Top 10 once she has defended UFC Gold, muahahaha!!

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Old 12-27-2012, 01:35 AM   #54
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Time has passed. GSP walked into one huge punch years ago, and was quickly KOed because of it. It was so long ago that GSP won the rematch (by dominant stoppage) the same week that current top-3 p4per Jon Jones made his pro debut.



Sonnen dropped him with strikes at least once in the first match. He didn't badly hurt him, but he floored him.

Anderson won both fights against Chael, but he lost 5 rounds out of 7 during them. Has GSP lost 5 completed rounds in his UFC career, let alone lost them in such one-sided fashion as Anderson did against Chael?



First, I agree that Diaz is not the #1 contender. But he is a longtime top-level guy.

Second, wins over Condit and Diaz are better than no fights against MW contenders in the same time period. Anderson last defended his belt in July, and he has no title defence signed yet and no indication that one is coming any time soon.

All that said, I have Anderson #1 p4p as well. But p4p is current - overall career legacy is only part of it. That's why Hendo isn't a current top-5 p4per. And as of December 2012, GSP is defending his belt more often in a deeper division. There's a good argument to be made that GSP is #1 anyway, but if he beats Diaz while Anderson celebrates a year without defending his belt, his case only gets stronger.

There is that word "floored" again. I don't know Haggis, in this case that just doesn't sit well with me.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

Manny Pacquiao was floored in that 3rd round, but not Anderson Silva.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:12 AM   #56
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In boxing, it would have been a knockdown, but the word "floored" does make it sound worse than it was. Staggered is probably more fitting.

He was about as floored as Mayweather was against Judah.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:39 AM   #57
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Default Re: How does your current P4P top 10 look

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Time has passed. GSP walked into one huge punch years ago, and was quickly KOed because of it. It was so long ago that GSP won the rematch (by dominant stoppage) the same week that current top-3 p4per Jon Jones made his pro debut.
All true, but it remains a difference between the reign of Anderson and the reign of GSP. As things stand, Anderson is peerless in UFC terms.

In boxing, the only thing keeping Mayweather on top is his long unbeaten run, because Andre Ward is looking fresher and better now, and is dominating the shit out of his top contenders in a way Floyd couldn't do vs Cotto. You have to respect longevity/consistency/dominance.

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Sonnen dropped him with strikes at least once in the first match. He didn't badly hurt him, but he floored him.
If you consider that the same thing as GSP getting dropped by a headkick and then swarmed with GnP and almost being finishes, then we have radically different impressions of those two incidents. Anderson got briefly staggered by a punch, was not remotely hurt, was nowhere near to getting finished, whereas GSP was properly knocked flat, was badly hurt, and ate clean shots as Condit hunted a finish. Totally totally different situations.

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Anderson won both fights against Chael, but he lost 5 rounds out of 7 during them. Has GSP lost 5 completed rounds in his UFC career, let alone lost them in such one-sided fashion as Anderson did against Chael?
Anderson finished Chael twice - and please stop overlooking the illegitimacy of that first fight when Chael carried the monster advantage of being juiced to oblivion. I value conclusive finishing of fights higher than grinding out every round. You consider GSP's soporific one-sided jabfest against Shields more impressive than Anderson subbing a world-class wrestler with a 16.9/1 testosterone level? I know I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
First, I agree that Diaz is not the #1 contender. But he is a longtime top-level guy.

Second, wins over Condit and Diaz are better than no fights against MW contenders in the same time period. Anderson last defended his belt in July, and he has no title defence signed yet and no indication that one is coming any time soon.
A win over Condit was great, same as a rematch finishing of Sonnen was. No advantage there. A win over Nick Diaz is a thoroughly expected win over a good but not great challenger, where GSP will again be an overwhelming, white-hot favourite to win. No, not enough to supercede the reigning #1, not at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
All that said, I have Anderson #1 p4p as well. But p4p is current - overall career legacy is only part of it. That's why Hendo isn't a current top-5 p4per. And as of December 2012, GSP is defending his belt more often in a deeper division. There's a good argument to be made that GSP is #1 anyway, but if he beats Diaz while Anderson celebrates a year without defending his belt, his case only gets stronger.

I am aware that legacy is only part of it, I clearly stated this when I first mentioned GSP's KO loss as a factor, albeit not a major one.

You can't change the p4p#1 every time a guy has six months off, it's too important a position for that. The guy needs to definitively lose the top spot, and Silva saving a card for the UFC by taking a late-notice 205lbs fight and having no fight scheduled right now is of course not sufficient reason to move him out of a position he has earned decisively over the years. Come on man.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:19 PM   #58
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You can't change the p4p#1 every time a guy has six months off, it's too important a position for that. The guy needs to definitively lose the top spot, and Silva saving a card for the UFC by taking a late-notice 205lbs fight and having no fight scheduled right now is of course not sufficient reason to move him out of a position he has earned decisively over the years. Come on man.
I understand but if a fighter hasnt been active for more than a year then he loses his spot but if he comes back in the same fashion he left then he gets his spot back or a step below depending on whats been going on.
Kinda like Floyd when he was gone for more than a year but didnt retire people removed him from their p4p #1/#2 spot but when he came back and proved he could still hang with around at the top then people put him back at p4p #1/#2 spot
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:24 PM   #59
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If a fighter was bigger heŽd lose speed, agility, be slower etc, he would fight in a completely different style.

if a fighter was smaller, heŽd be faster, more agile, less power etc and have a completely different style of fighting.

if all fighters were the exact same size, no one would have a ****ing clue about the outcome of a fight. P4p debates are like debating religion, pretty much ludicrous and without logic.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #60
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If a fighter was bigger heŽd lose speed, agility, be slower etc, he would fight in a completely different style.

if a fighter was smaller, heŽd be faster, more agile, less power etc and have a completely different style of fighting.

if all fighters were the exact same size, no one would have a ****ing clue about the outcome of a fight. P4p debates are like debating religion, pretty much ludicrous and without logic.


Quote:
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In boxing, it would have been a knockdown, but the word "floored" does make it sound worse than it was. Staggered is probably more fitting.

He was about as floored as Mayweather was against Judah.
Thank you Mr. Rob, for saying what I couldn't on the fly.

But, Haggis is on, in his own right. I think Chael Sonnen's knockdowns of Silva were legit, and on second thought anyone who is properly floored inside the cage is punched out 90% of the time.

For your time:

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