What if the Soviets had always been allowed to fight in the pro ranks?

[dmille]

Originally Posted by MrFoFody

Just because your a mid 20's early 30's yr old full grown man against teens winning Olympic gold medals...

You mean like Ray Mercer?

[MrFoFody]

Originally Posted by dmille

You mean like Ray Mercer?

I mean like anyone, USA, Russian, Cuban, British...

[dyna]

Originally Posted by DREAMCATCHER

I stand corrected. It was pietrzykowski (The guy Ali beat) who defeated papp at the tail end of his career. They fought x3 and Papp defeated him twice i believe.

I am very interested in the history of the Soviet and Cuban fighters and if i make the odd mistake in my posting then so be it.

I don't really have enough time to delve into the subject as i would like to so feel free to highlight certain things u disagree with, but don't make the mistake of thinking i am stupid!

Thankyou for your post.

Arguably that guy got robbed.
Ali only really won the third round.

[dmille]

Originally Posted by MrFoFody

I mean like anyone, USA, Russian, Cuban, British...

What should the age limits be?

[Faerun]

Originally Posted by dyna

Arguably that guy got robbed.
Ali only really won the third round.

No

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8eqAve3sZw[/ame]

[DREAMCATCHER]

Originally Posted by MrFoFody

Just look at some of the former gold medalist who turned pro and never amounted to anything.

And just look at the former gold medallist's who did amount to something!

Stands to reason that a lot of them WOULD be succesful fighters.

[DREAMCATCHER]

Originally Posted by Faerun

No

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Pietrzykowski actually rates Papp as a better fighter than Clay. Check out the book 'They could've been contenders'.

I do agree that Ali won that fight with Pietrzykowski though.

[Faerun]

Originally Posted by DREAMCATCHER

Pietrzykowski actually rates Papp as a better fighter than Clay. Check out the book 'They could've been contenders'.

I do agree that Ali won that fight with Pietrzykowski though.

Can't seem to find that book anywhere. Got a link for me?

[chitownfightfan]

If Eastern Europeans and russians were fighting in the 50s, boxing would be dead and the weakest eras would have started then.

If they started to dominate in the 70s, the 50s wouldve been the golden era.

If they began dominating in the 80s, the 60s would have been the golden era.

When black and/or american fighters are no longer the dominant fighters of boxing it's a weak era. When they are on top, it's the toughest era ever and the golden age of boxing.

If you disagree, you DKSAB.

[PolishPummler]

Suggesting all would be successful because of there work in the AM's would be false.

Without question the Boxing landscape would look different though.

[Sugar Nick]

This thread drips with jealousy and Anti USA sentiment.

The only countries that didnt fight were what? Cuba and USSR?

Does anyone really believe that USSR/CUBA would produce some sort of super fighter who would be able to dethrone Ali or any of the great champs? NO because it wouldn't happen. It would just be another victory for Ali or SRR or whomever.

The old American champs fought guys from all the countries that were able to give fighters who were actually good enough.

It just so happened that the best fighters were American/Latin American.

[MaliBua]

Originally Posted by Sugar Nick

This thread drips with jealousy and Anti USA sentiment.

The only countries that didnt fight were what? Cuba and USSR?

Does anyone really believe that USSR/CUBA would produce some sort of super fighter who would be able to dethrone Ali or any of the great champs? NO because it wouldn't happen. It would just be another victory for Ali or SRR or whomever.

The old American champs fought guys from all the countries that were able to give fighters who were actually good enough.

It just so happened that the best fighters were American/Latin American.

Monte Barret=modern Day Ali.
You mad bro?

You have a massive chip on your shoulder.

[VanillaKilla]

Originally Posted by Sugar Nick

This thread drips with jealousy and Anti USA sentiment.

The only countries that didnt fight were what? Cuba and USSR?

Does anyone really believe that USSR/CUBA would produce some sort of super fighter who would be able to dethrone Ali or any of the great champs? NO because it wouldn't happen. It would just be another victory for Ali or SRR or whomever.

The old American champs fought guys from all the countries that were able to give fighters who were actually good enough.

It just so happened that the best fighters were American/Latin American.

The whole Warsaw Pact + USSR was not allowed to fight...

Western Euro's are on average not as large or aggressive as Eastern

The title of Heavyweight "world" champion prior to the fall of the iron curtain will always have an * next to it.....

[DREAMCATCHER]

Originally Posted by Faerun

Can't seem to find that book anywhere. Got a link for me?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[DREAMCATCHER]

This thread drips with jealousy and Anti USA sentiment.

No it doesn't.

The only countries that didnt fight were what? Cuba and USSR?

Cuba and the USSR just happened to be the most dominant forces in Amateur boxing along with the US! And the USSR was not a country! Anyway....one must assume had they fought in the pro ranks and had the same management and emphasis as the US fighters the landscape as a whole would be very different!

Does anyone really believe that USSR/CUBA would produce some sort of super fighter who would be able to dethrone Ali or any of the great champs? NO because it wouldn't happen. It would just be another victory for Ali or SRR or whomever.

Very arrogant. Ali won LHW gold, was there a LHW around at the time to beat him? What i do know is he only ever really beat one good amateur, a guy who MW Laszlo Papp defeated twice and a guy who rates Papp as better than Ali! Papp would certainly have defeated Ali.

Ali lost to Bonavena as an amateur, Drew with Mildenberger and lost to John Hampton. Ali's amateur record is less than stellar.

The soviets had only just started competing at the games around the time Ali turned pro and the Cubans started in the 70's i believe. Had ali had to face the likes of Stevenson or Igor Vysotsky im sure he would have struggled!

All the current top Slavic heavyweights were in their mid-teens when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, and represent only the first generation of Slavic heavyweights. Historically, boxing has been driven by fighters from poor, urban backgrounds. There are plenty of young men who meet that description in the former Soviet Union, plenty of promotional muscle in germany etc looking to cultivate them, and the next generation of Slav heavyweights will be brought up with a later career in the pros fully in mind. In the long term the Slav heavyweights are here to stay.

As for Robinson he only ever won the golden gloves.

The old American champs fought guys from all the countries that were able to give fighters who were actually good enough.

Ok so point me to this american dominance over soviet fighters? They could not dominate them in the amateur ranks so explain how they would do it in the pros?

Most of the greatest amateurs ever are non american:

Laszlo Papp
Felix Savon
Teofilo Stevenson
Boris Lagutin
Aleksei Tishchenko (still active)
Mario Kindelán
Oleg Saitov (The greatest amateur boxer of the 90's)
Jerzy Kulej
Vladimir Yengibaryan
Vasyl Lomachenko (still active)

Have you heard of Lomachenko? The great guillermo was voted only one time as the best amateur boxer in the world by AIBA, while Lomachenko has been voted already 3 times at the age of what 22 or 23?

No doubt u will point me to Foreman and Frazier. U do know that Cepulis was in his late 20's and Hans Huber (whom Frazier defeated by a razor thin decision) was in his 30's dont u? That is ancient in amateur terms!

It just so happened that the best fighters were Cuban/Russian/American/Latin American.

Edited.