Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by janitor

I take it that you don't approve?

I absolutely fucking approve.

Greb would've came in around 168 and whooped Foster and Spinks' ass.

[PhillyPhan69]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

I absolutely fucking approve.

Greb would've came in around 168 and whooped Foster and Spinks' ass.

I am not sure if you are being facetious or not??? I will leave Foster out of it for the minute because I am not as big on him as some are....But I don't think there is a LHW ever that whoops Spinks...beat him perhaps, but not whoop. Greb is certainly a candidate that might beat him...but I can't picture anyone @ 175 whooping him.

[Hands of Iron]

Some sensationalism. He would've fought them, though. Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles too.

He's beyond all and any doubt. A super-fighter, and boasts the greatest resume in the history of boxing.

[HOUDINI]

Fleischer wrote "50 years at ringside" in 1958 and I have an original although beat up copy. Interestingly in the last chapter he rates the greatest middleweights of all time.

Ketchel
Ryan
Greb
Walker
SRR
Klaus
Papke
Darcy
M. Gibbons
Jeff Smith

Its very possible he changed his mind over the years. Based on his writings in this book he thought Ketchel, Ryan and Greb were the very top elite so possibly he did not feel either three had that much over the other.

[steve w]

It points to Greb, his number of quality opponents in various divs gives him the advantage, I honestly think that either Monzon or Hagler would trouble him too much.

[Rise Above]

Based on who they fought its Greb without a doubt. Hard to pick him with no footage though.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Let's not forget Ketchel. Fleischer and others who saw both Greb and Ketchel rated Stanley the great middleweight.

A lot of Nat Fleischer was based around Jack Johnson who he rated very highly even for those times, I guess the fact that Ketchel dropped Johnson and some of Ketchels wars left an impression in Nat's mind.....Greb was a tough German and his resume is incredible while Stan was cut a bit shorter although both died too young...I spoke to Nat Fleischer many times and he saw many fighters as a young man that others did not see but we all may have a bias to certain era's or era's we were told about as young men.

IMO they were both were outstanding fighters and ATG's and top 5 middleweights

[HOUDINI]

Nat rated Johnson the best as of 50 years at ringside which would be 1958 (officially). As of his death he did not change his ratings all time in the hwt division at least. He was close friends with both Johnson and Ketchel. He stated that Ketchel gave him the most thrills of any fighter he ever saw from ringside.

[Brian Zelley]

Of all the top middleweights, the one that gets overlooked the most appears
to be MARCEL CERDAN. Also, MICKEY WALKER would give any of the ones that
appear to be the top picks a run for their money, be it GREB, KETCHEL, MONZON
or HAGLER.
If the majority pick Greb or Monzon, that does not prove that Greb or Monzon were
the best. There can be only one, and picking the top middleweight will never be
a unanimous decision.

[frankwornank]

people love to get fancy and throw around names but Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest middleweight ever. Just because he was a great welter does not take away from the fact he was a great middleweight. Monzon would be my second choice. No way is Hagler more than 8th or 10th best middle ever. Greb, simply too far back in time to figure how great he was.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by frankwornank

people love to get fancy and throw around names but Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest middleweight ever. Just because he was a great welter does not take away from the fact he was a great middleweight. Monzon would be my second choice. No way is Hagler more than 8th or 10th best middle ever. Greb, simply too far back in time to figure how great he was.

And Lincoln was "too far back" to figure how great a president he was !
Look at the record books, see his amazing resume, fighting everybody, beating everyone, every size, and look at film of some of his great HOF victims he whipped in a 300 bout career. Greb didn't beat them by osmosis.
Greb beat them , [Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Slattery, Dillon,Battling Levinsky, Gunboat Smith, Kid Norfolk, Maxie Rosenbloom, Bill Brennan, Gunboat Smith etc ] BECAUSE HE WAS THAT GOOD !

[frankwornank]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

And Lincoln was "too far back" to figure how great a president he was !
Look at the record books, see his amazing resume, fighting everybody, beating everyone, every size, and look at film of some of his great HOF victims he whipped in a 300 bout career. Greb didn't beat them by osmosis.
Greb beat them , [Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Slattery, Dillon,Battling Levinsky, Gunboat Smith, Kid Norfolk, Maxie Rosenbloom, Bill Brennan, Gunboat Smith etc ] BECAUSE HE WAS THAT GOOD !

He was also beaten by Tunney twice and Gibbons twice and Loughran once. I never questioned how great Greb was, it is just that he fought in such a different era, it is hard to figure how he would do in a more modern era.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by frankwornank

I never questioned how great Greb was, it is just that he fought in such a different era, it is hard to figure how he would do in a more modern era.

It's not about how he would do in the modern era it's how he did in his, i dont understand why a fighter has to be ranked great by being transported around, some fighters have styles that beat others but it can't be judged on that because we never know we have to base it off what we know as fact by looking at their records and how they did. We can't decide from hypothetical h2h match ups cause anything can happen we have to judge it on fact and records that are concrete proof

[Surf-Bat]

Originally Posted by frankwornank

Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest middleweight ever. Just because he was a great welter does not take away from the fact he was a great middleweight.

Originally Posted by frankwornank

He was also beaten by Tunney twice and Gibbons twice and Loughran once.

But if you want to apply that standard, wasn't Robinson also beaten by Fullmer twice? Basilio once? Jake LaMotta once?

Sure, he was a great middleweight, but he also struggled GREATLY with just about every ranked middleweight he ever faced, whether great or merely good, even when he was younger and his in prime (see vs. Abrams, Mims, etc). I don't think he has the consistence at MW to rank him at number 1. Certainly nothing that would push him over Greb.

Cheers

[redrooster]

Hagler
Monzon
Greb