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Old 12-26-2012, 08:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

One of the things I like most about boxing and muay thai is getting punched. Being in a fight is the best part of training. Pro fighters must love it.

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Having a beating in boxing session can take it's toll on some. Experience is key
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Old 12-28-2012, 05:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

Normally it depends on the individuals .
But if i have to select one then i would vote for boxing.
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Old 12-29-2012, 03:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

This is kinda a weird question. As the other fellas have mentioned it depends on who you’re sparring and almost more importantly where you’re sparring. I imagine a BJJ spar in Rio is very different to a BJJ spar in Malta as is an MT spar in LA is different to an MT spar Bangkok.

On the thread alot of people are talking about ruff house MT spars with nasty biting leg kicks and I admit MT spars in the west can be bruising encounters especially when things get a bit "overheated", but if things get that far on a regular basis something's wrong . When you've got more chance of getting injured than advancing your skills I struggle to see the benefits. Wars while sparring have more to do with well meaning but often misinformed coaches & weekend warriors than the actual style of MT itself.

This is what I mean about where you spar also being key to how intense it is. In the west there is a clear lack of experience and depth in most MT gyms, so your sparring is gonna suffer. It's not uncommon to get guys of very differing experience levels and weight classes sparring each other , this is where you tend to see the full on wars most have already mentioned as well as bags of injuries. Many gyms have an over macho mentality often built on well worn out & inaccurate myths about "the brutal and tough nature of Muay Thai in Thailand". In gyms like this heavy sparring is encouraged to mimic the ring, but IMO this does nothing other than to break down the body giving you inquires that are carried and recur long into your career. Either way neither of the above are really how it should and is intended to be done. It just serves individual egos not the sport, I've had more injuries from sparring in the west than I ever had from fighting and training in Thailand.

In Thailand, MT is a serious business. You have to remember the sport exists solely to give fighters, trainers, promoters and bookies a living, that’s it. A fighter needs to fight to earn his crust & place in the gym, so any injuries picked up in training keep him out of the ring & not feeding his family. They never spar hard with all weapons. The only heavy sparring that's done is 3 times a week just with hands (16oz gloves & no headgear) and it can get pretty intense. The other sparring using knees & feet etc. is very controlled, minimal contact with the emphasis on speed, techniques & feints. This is usually done with no protective equipment on the hands, shins or balls and is very intense interms of concentration & focus. The final part of sparring, the clinch and knee work is where most freak incidents seem to happen & is the most physically demanding and exhausting. All it takes for you to pick up a bruised rib that'll put you out for 6 weeks is to get your timing wrong and move into an oncoming lightly thrown straight knee, ouch.

In answer to the TS's question, for me in the west a heavy contact MT sparring session using all weapons is way more punishing in my experience than a heavy boxing spar (I’ve been a sparring partner for a WBA title challenger). I’m not saying boxing sparring ain’t punishing on the body, but a full on MT spar is ruff, more areas get banged up. I can’t even remember the amount of times I used to go to work hobbling on one leg or out of action cos of bruised ribs, or nursing heavy swelling on the face from some nasty kicks etc. etc.. The absolute toughest kind of sparring I’ve ever done is clinch and knee work rotating off Thais in Thailand when I first moved there. Painful, exhausting and humiliating. It can crush your ego leaving you battered and empty. I can't really comment on BJJ or wrestling, never done it, but I can imagine on the ground the fine line between a comfortable spar and some serious sprains and tears is a wafer thin.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

I agree the clinch wrestling aspect is exhausting. I've been dropped with knees to my ribs just under the armpits. I'll have to ask you how to defend this other than to push them off.

Muay Thai sparring for me is not as damaging in degree, because there are more targets to hit and more defenses to use whereas in boxing the punishment concentrated, mostly on the head. I've had more headaches in boxing than in MT.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:57 AM   #20
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

For me it's wrestling!

I've never wanted to give up as much as I did after being dropped on my head against the cage bottom about 30 times in a row before.

Awful!

I felt like my body had given up...

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Old 12-30-2012, 08:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

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Originally Posted by RJJFan View Post
I agree the clinch wrestling aspect is exhausting. I've been dropped with knees to my ribs just under the armpits. I'll have to ask you how to defend this other than to push them off.

Muay Thai sparring for me is not as damaging in degree, because there are more targets to hit and more defenses to use whereas in boxing the punishment concentrated, mostly on the head. I've had more headaches in boxing than in MT.
Fair enough, I understand what you mean about it all being localized & agree you definitely feel it when you've done a good few rounds with a quality boxer.

Still for me the power and damage generated from feet and knees dwarfs the kind of pain and damage done by hands in sparring. If you wanna talk headaches just cop a few hard knees to the head or eat a shin sandwich a few times, your head will be pulsating for days. In my experience in western MT sparring it's unfortunate but commonplace for lasting damage to be done in way you never seem to get in boxing. But either way, in a heavy sparring session of either sport youíre gonna get tested!

About defending the knee, as you know RJJ it's the most complicated aspect to MT & varies according to ring positioning, type of clinch your in, the strength of your opponent etc. etc. In the scenario you mentioned you said youíd been dropped with knees high on your ribs in a clinch. Sounds like your giving the guy too much room to get his knees off and both your hands are reaching too high to grab him high behind the neck.

OK, whilst trying to keep your arms on the inside remove one hand from his neck and put it on his bicep or shoulder whilst keeping one hand behind his neck. Keep your back straight & push your hips close to him to close down the space, itíll automatically shut down many target options for him. Relax, put your head down so you can see the action, feel his strength, body movement and try to get a sense of his balancing. As he throws a knee you simultaneously side step round him on the opposite side of he is kneeing with pulling with the hand you have behind his neck whilst pushing with the controlling rudder like hand you have resting on his bicep. You'll easily avoid his knee whilst turning the clinch into your control. You may need to alternate the hand positioning depending on which knee heís throwing with. Thatís a pretty basic clinch knee defense. Youíll find from that positioning openings for your own knees and if you get the timing right youíll find him easy to throw form that position, you'll just fluidly feel the momentum tipping him over.

If that sounds abit hard to follow and you really are up shit creek without a paddle facing a much stronger fighter with good knees, the secret is trying to keep your balance and trying to off balance him when heís throwing his shots. But if you canít relax enough to do that here are two spoiling techniques thatíll keep you safe.

If he has you in the plumb, put your extended arms on top of his and cross your hands at the wrist pushing the insides of the gloves into his face or neck. Itís uncomfortable, forces him to lean back, gives you control of his arms and makes it awkward for him to see and throw.

This is a super useful one, if you just canít get anything going. If the guy is just making your life hell with the clinch, go full square onto him, push your hips right into his whilst keep your back straight and wrap your arms around his waist and lock your gloves, then pull him into you as close as heíll go. He canít do shit, until the ref breaks you. Itís also possible if you spread you legs out a bit, bend your knees a little and twist him real fast whilst heís struggling, youíll catch him off balance and heíll fall over the knee of your slightly spread and bent leg.

A word of warning though, yes the above 2 spoiling techniques are very simple, but a more experienced fighter can counter them with throws. One last thing about defending against the plumb, as I know itís very popular way to clinch in the west (even though you very rarely see it used in the ring in Thailand). If a guy has you in the plumb and your struggling to break it and heís throwing you round real good, just push your hips towards his, and the same time pull your back & neck straight, this breaks his control. You must never arch your back or bend when being held in the plumb, remember to keep that neck and back straight upright and then work for better hand positioning.

Remember clinch work is all about being relaxed, having the correct hip, foot and hand positioning and putting the other guy off balance, itís nothing to do with strength it's all about fluid effortless technique. There is loads to clinching, many many variations and techniques that never really get to see the light of day in the west.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

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Fair enough, I understand what you mean about it all being localized & agree you definitely feel it when you've done a good few rounds with a quality boxer.

Still for me the power and damage generated from feet and knees dwarfs the kind of pain and damage done by hands in sparring. If you wanna talk headaches just cop a few hard knees to the head or eat a shin sandwich a few times, your head will be pulsating for days. In my experience in western MT sparring it's unfortunate but commonplace for lasting damage to be done in way you never seem to get in boxing. But either way, in a heavy sparring session of either sport youíre gonna get tested!

About defending the knee, as you know RJJ it's the most complicated aspect to MT & varies according to ring positioning, type of clinch your in, the strength of your opponent etc. etc. In the scenario you mentioned you said youíd been dropped with knees high on your ribs in a clinch. Sounds like your giving the guy too much room to get his knees off and both your hands are reaching too high to grab him high behind the neck.

OK, whilst trying to keep your arms on the inside remove one hand from his neck and put it on his bicep or shoulder whilst keeping one hand behind his neck. Keep your back straight & push your hips close to him to close down the space, itíll automatically shut down many target options for him. Relax, put your head down so you can see the action, feel his strength, body movement and try to get a sense of his balancing. As he throws a knee you simultaneously side step round him on the opposite side of he is kneeing with pulling with the hand you have behind his neck whilst pushing with the controlling rudder like hand you have resting on his bicep. You'll easily avoid his knee whilst turning the clinch into your control. You may need to alternate the hand positioning depending on which knee heís throwing with. Thatís a pretty basic clinch knee defense. Youíll find from that positioning openings for your own knees and if you get the timing right youíll find him easy to throw form that position, you'll just fluidly feel the momentum tipping him over.

If that sounds abit hard to follow and you really are up shit creek without a paddle facing a much stronger fighter with good knees, the secret is trying to keep your balance and trying to off balance him when heís throwing his shots. But if you canít relax enough to do that here are two spoiling techniques thatíll keep you safe.

If he has you in the plumb, put your extended arms on top of his and cross your hands at the wrist pushing the insides of the gloves into his face or neck. Itís uncomfortable, forces him to lean back, gives you control of his arms and makes it awkward for him to see and throw.

This is a super useful one, if you just canít get anything going. If the guy is just making your life hell with the clinch, go full square onto him, push your hips right into his whilst keep your back straight and wrap your arms around his waist and lock your gloves, then pull him into you as close as heíll go. He canít do shit, until the ref breaks you. Itís also possible if you spread you legs out a bit, bend your knees a little and twist him real fast whilst heís struggling, youíll catch him off balance and heíll fall over the knee of your slightly spread and bent leg.

A word of warning though, yes the above 2 spoiling techniques are very simple, but a more experienced fighter can counter them with throws. One last thing about defending against the plumb, as I know itís very popular way to clinch in the west (even though you very rarely see it used in the ring in Thailand). If a guy has you in the plumb and your struggling to break it and heís throwing you round real good, just push your hips towards his, and the same time pull your back & neck straight, this breaks his control. You must never arch your back or bend when being held in the plumb, remember to keep that neck and back straight upright and then work for better hand positioning.

Remember clinch work is all about being relaxed, having the correct hip, foot and hand positioning and putting the other guy off balance, itís nothing to do with strength it's all about fluid effortless technique. There is loads to clinching, many many variations and techniques that never really get to see the light of day in the west.
Much thanks BKK, very informative and I will definitely incorporate your suggestions. Whereabouts are you at? I'd love to learn some MT from you someday.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

Thai Boxing, because I hate getting kicked. When tired n worn out, Id much rather have a guy beat on me with his fists then get to knee and kick me. Took a kick to the head one time that really sucked.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

Boxing by far for me.

grappling you can tap out anytime and MT sparring I've never known be hard or full on,generally if one fighter breaks shape because of being hit they're given time to reset.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

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Much thanks BKK, very informative and I will definitely incorporate your suggestions. Whereabouts are you at? I'd love to learn some MT from you someday.
Between BKK and London. In the not too distant future will be opening a modest gym in Trang, Southern Thailand, so if you ever get out to Thailand your welcome mate. The gym is gonna be "rural & rustic" affair, geared for young Thais, but anyone'll be welcome if they can handle the conditions!

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Boxing by far for me.

grappling you can tap out anytime and MT sparring I've never known be hard or full on,generally if one fighter breaks shape because of being hit they're given time to reset.
No offence mate, but where do you train MT? Sounds very odd......
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

How effective is a cross armed defence (the one Foreman and Archie Moore used) in a streetfight and/or Muay Thai or even Wing Chun.

I almost never hear of uppercuts in streetfights so you don't have the be scared that you get uppercutted.
I think uppercuts are more rare too in Muay Thai because legs, and Wing Chun seems to be just straight punches.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

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How effective is a cross armed defence (the one Foreman and Archie Moore used) in a streetfight and/or Muay Thai or even Wing Chun.

I almost never hear of uppercuts in streetfights so you don't have the be scared that you get uppercutted.
I think uppercuts are more rare too in Muay Thai because legs, and Wing Chun seems to be just straight punches.
Not true, uppercuts as well as hooks are a common offence against an oncoming knee specialist.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:26 PM   #28
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Default Re: Worst Day Sparring: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grappling?

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Not true, uppercuts as well as hooks are a common offence against an oncoming knee specialist.
Ok, I just thought because with elbows, knees and feet there is less room for uppercuts if you get what I mean. (More "moves" to choose from described in "video game language")

But with cross armed defense the only punches that are truly dangerous are the uppercuts.

It just seems to me like an effective defense to quickly get in the inside somebody (incase of a streetfight) using headbutts and bodyattacks as my main offense.
I probably still need some defense or preparation against kicks.

And sparring experience to see how I have to execute it correctly.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:53 AM   #29
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Between BKK and London. In the not too distant future will be opening a modest gym in Trang, Southern Thailand, so if you ever get out to Thailand your welcome mate. The gym is gonna be "rural & rustic" affair, geared for young Thais, but anyone'll be welcome if they can handle the conditions!
Cheers, I've trained at the Fairtex camp and was planning on Sinbi but I'll definitely head out to your gym first. I'll bring my machete and mozzie spray no worries.
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