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Old 01-01-2013, 01:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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Nobody is claiming Shavers was a great fighter, but every single fighter who faced him, win or lose, walked away saying nobody hit harder than Shavers.

Shavers fought guys who shared the ring with Foreman, Tyson, Bonecrusher Smith, Liston, Frazier, Cooney, Mercer, McCall, Morrison, Bruno, and Weaver. When common oponents comment on hard punchers, every single one of them state Shavers was the hardest puncher they shared the ring with.

Shavers had more power than any other heavyweight, but what he lacked was stamina, accuracy, and punch selection. He was not a good finisher, which is what allowed the better fighters he faced to get through the rough patches (which they all ended up having against Shavers) and to go on to win. The lesser fighters Shavers faced were not able to avoid the shots the better fighters avoided. When Shavers landed, he shook up even the most iron chinned of fighters.
Shavers simply doesn't have the body of truly top level brutal KOs to merit his lofty position, whatever other fighters have to say about him. In fact, the very fact that Shavers supporters feel the burning need to bring up said tired, old, heard-it-all-before quotes says it all regarding his actual in ring achievements. There is nothing in firm evidence to prove that Shavers had more power than any other heavyweight, and plenty to say that he was overrated beyond all reasonable amount. At no point did he produce a single one punch knockout in the manner of Tua v Wilson, Wlad v Chambers or even Foreman v Moorer. Ellis was the closest he ever got, and that's simply not enough to justify his rep.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:02 AM   #32
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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I wonder if someone who is around now fought 70 D level bums, KO'd them all, and lost to some greats would be considered one of the hardest punchers EVER?

Probably not.

Shavers is the definition of golden era HW bias.
People are conditioned to bring up Shavers by rote.

Critical thinking doesn't enter into it.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:32 AM   #33
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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It means how hard you can punch relative to your bodyweight, since punching power generally increases with increased weight. A middleweight who knocks other middleweights unconscious with single punches is likely a harder puncher P4P than a heavyweight who bludgeons them into TKOs, even though the latter might hit harder in a literal sense.
Right.

So wouldn't the "winner" have to be a flyweight or bantamweight? There have certainly been a few with KO power, but I haven't seen any mentioned in this thread.

Which is why I don't understand what it really means. A HW by definition can't be the P4P king, since you can't "extra" KO a guy. Well, I guess unless you make a career of literally killing opponents with one punch.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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Right.

So wouldn't the "winner" have to be a flyweight or bantamweight? There have certainly been a few with KO power, but I haven't seen any mentioned in this thread.

Which is why I don't understand what it really means. A HW by definition can't be the P4P king, since you can't "extra" KO a guy. Well, I guess unless you make a career of literally killing opponents with one punch.
If a heavyweight consistently one punched other durable heavyweights unconscious then he'd enter the top spot, indisputably.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:09 AM   #35
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

I heard Jimmy Wilde was pretty good.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:11 AM   #36
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

Ronnie Coleman
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:13 AM   #37
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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Shavers simply doesn't have the body of truly top level brutal KOs to merit his lofty position, whatever other fighters have to say about him. In fact, the very fact that Shavers supporters feel the burning need to bring up said tired, old, heard-it-all-before quotes says it all regarding his actual in ring achievements. There is nothing in firm evidence to prove that Shavers had more power than any other heavyweight, and plenty to say that he was overrated beyond all reasonable amount. At no point did he produce a single one punch knockout in the manner of Tua v Wilson, Wlad v Chambers or even Foreman v Moorer. Ellis was the closest he ever got, and that's simply not enough to justify his rep.
Muhammad Ali knocked out better fighters than Shavers. Does that make him a harder puncher?

Shavers lacked the "body" of other hard punchers because he also lacked the skills. There are so many more factors to a knockout than just pure power. Shavers is rightfully never mentioned among punchers, he's mentioned among the hardest punchers.

There's a huge difference between a good puncher and a hard one. History shows that good punchers get more knockouts over top competition than purely hard punchers.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:05 AM   #38
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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Muhammad Ali knocked out better fighters than Shavers. Does that make him a harder puncher?

Shavers lacked the "body" of other hard punchers because he also lacked the skills. There are so many more factors to a knockout than just pure power. Shavers is rightfully never mentioned among punchers, he's mentioned among the hardest punchers.

There's a huge difference between a good puncher and a hard one. History shows that good punchers get more knockouts over top competition than purely hard punchers.
There's also a difference between being a genuine knockout puncher and being perceived as one. Shavers falls into the latter camp.

Shavers lacks the body of brutal knockouts because he didn't punch as hard as advertised. It's not like he didn't have plenty of opportunity to prove that with some of the stiffs he fought. Where's his equivalent of Tua Moorer, or Ruddock Dokes? If you have the power to put someone's lights out or hurt them so badly that they're unable to defend themselves then you don't need good finishing skills.

I'm not criticising him for not having knocked out Holmes or Ali, nor am I criticising him for his losses or his lack of success at the upper level of the sport. But he doesn't belong in discussions like this, unless it's to expose just how thin the actual in-ring evidence is for legitimately justifying his place among the hardest punchers in the sport.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234 View Post
Nobody is claiming Shavers was a great fighter, but every single fighter who faced him, win or lose, walked away saying nobody hit harder than Shavers.

Shavers fought guys who shared the ring with Foreman, Tyson, Bonecrusher Smith, Liston, Frazier, Cooney, Mercer, McCall, Morrison, Bruno, and Weaver. When common oponents comment on hard punchers, every single one of them state Shavers was the hardest puncher they shared the ring with.

Shavers had more power than any other heavyweight, but what he lacked was stamina, accuracy, and punch selection. He was not a good finisher, which is what allowed the better fighters he faced to get through the rough patches (which they all ended up having against Shavers) and to go on to win. The lesser fighters Shavers faced were not able to avoid the shots the better fighters avoided. When Shavers landed, he shook up even the most iron chinned of fighters.
“I think based on this performance here and his own conversations with me in the recent days that he realizes that he is actually too reluctant, too intelligent, too technical—that I think you’re going to see a much more aggressive fighter in Wladimir. If this man actually would just operate with close to 80%—he’s only operating with about 60%—he would be the most devastating heavyweight in the history of boxing because I’ve worked with him. Never, ever, ever have I been involved with a fighter who has so much one punch punching power. Even guys that knock somebody out—they get them hurt, they knock them down, they get them groggy—Wladimir is the only fighter I’ve ever worked with that everything can be normal like a big party—everybody is having champagne, on the floors, in the tuxedos, with the music—and the lights go off completely at one time. I mean it’s not like a gradual dimmer switch. I never saw anyone who knocked out people in a gym when they block punches and he did that about three weeks ago with a sparring partner—two weeks ago, prior to the fight. With a sparring partner he threw a left hook, the sparring partner blocked the punch and with twenty ounce gloves he was still knocked out. He has unbelievable one punch punching power and that’s why maybe he doesn’t put combinations together because he punches so effectively and with so much power with one punch, but his handicap and problem is he feints too much. He wants everything to be perfect—perfect balance, perfect this, and the last round he was a little overly aggressive, got out of position a few times, but to go three minutes with a guy with his power is like a lifetime because even if he just grazes you with a punch, you’re going to be hurt.”
-Emanuel Steward

Wlad is heavier than Shavers, yes.
But when did Shavers ever knock somebody out while the receiving end blocked the punch?

P4P king is maybe Julian Jackson at 154
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:10 AM   #40
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

Of those on film, I'd go for Julian Jackson.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:34 AM   #41
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

When labelling Boxers as P4P hardest puncher you really need to reserve it for those who are the most proven and while guys like Jackson had frightening power in their own division it doesn't always translate up in weight. Bob Foster for example had scary power at LHW but when moving up to HW his power was a none factor, Michael Moorer did a better job carrying his up from LHW to HW and is the harder P4P puncher. If we only had their LHW careers to judge that probably could have been what we thought.

I would rate MW's like Steele, Lausse, Hostak, Fernandez as harder punchers than Jackson having scary looking power but proving it against better competition.

True P4P label's should be reserved for guys who proved it through multiple weight classes or fighting much heavier men.

Langford
Fitz
Choynski
Ketchel
Mickey Walker
Wilde
Ryan
Ted Kid Lewis
Ceferino Garcia
Archie Moore

I would rate modern guys like Duran and Pacquiao as harder P4P than Jackson because both showed their power fighting guys over 30lbs above their natural weight. Manny is probably a natural 122/26 lb guy and Clottey, Margarito, DLH were JMW sized and chinned guys who he could hurt.

Last edited by Vysotsky; 01-01-2013 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:35 AM   #42
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

Has anyone mentioned Walcott, yet?
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:54 AM   #43
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

P4P has to be Julian Jackson
Hamed is in the top ten
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

Julian Jackson, Tommy Hearns, Alexis Arguello, Rocky Marciano, Earnie Shavers, George Foreman and a few others are up there in terms of pure one punch power. Any of them could end a fight with a single shot against almost anyone, and they often did.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #45
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Default Re: Who is the P4P hardest puncher of all time?

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Julian Jackson, Tommy Hearns, Alexis Arguello, Rocky Marciano, Earnie Shavers, George Foreman and a few others are up there in terms of pure one punch power. Any of them could end a fight with a single shot against almost anyone, and they often did.
And the myth continues...
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