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Old 01-02-2013, 09:57 AM   #16
mattdonnellon
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

A lot of what you say is correct but I dont follow on with the logic that if somebody can achieve something that nobody else could that it automatically makes them the greatest.
eg How many could hold the undisputed title for ten years with 25 or so defences, only Joe Louis apparently. How many could win the title, defend it for 5 years without even getting dropped once and then retire undefeated, only Jeffries.
I agree an argument can be built for Foreman as the number one Heavy, as it can for Ali, Louis, Liston, Holmes, Lewis, The Klits, Dempsey, Johnson, Jeffries.
I for one dont buy it, that's all I'm saying. You just cant dismiss the Ali, Young and Lyle contests, they are as relevant as the Frazier and Norton fights.
Georges resume the first time around is probably the thinnest of the top Hw's.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

Foreman is greatest because he beat Frazier (who beat Ali) and Moorer (who beat Holyfield) -- yet lost to Ali and Holyfield himself. This brings him back down to mortality.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
A lot of what you say is correct but I dont follow on with the logic that if somebody can achieve something that nobody else could that it automatically makes them the greatest.
eg How many could hold the undisputed title for ten years with 25 or so defences, only Joe Louis apparently. How many could win the title, defend it for 5 years without even getting dropped once and then retire undefeated, only Jeffries.
I agree an argument can be built for Foreman as the number one Heavy, as it can for Ali, Louis, Liston, Holmes, Lewis, The Klits, Dempsey, Johnson, Jeffries.
I for one dont buy it, that's all I'm saying. You just cant dismiss the Ali, Young and Lyle contests, they are as relevant as the Frazier and Norton fights.
Georges resume the first time around is probably the thinnest of the top Hw's.

You raise a good point about others having done things that also cant be replicated. I actually agree with most of what you say, in that just because someone cant replicate what they did doesnt mean they are the greatest. But, (and the point i am getting at) is that i think that it can make a good argument that he is number one.

In recent years, it has become almost accepted as gospel that Ali and Louis are the two greatest fighters ever and no other conclusion is rational. I raise the George Foreman argument, because i think it is interesting that others have legitimate claims to being the greatest of all time, despite their claims being laughed at by most.

You raise Jeffries and louis and ask whether anyone could do what they do. Obviously we dont know for sure, and each of these has an argument to be the greatest ever. But in relation to Foreman, i dont think it is necessarilly certain that he couldnt. In fact, if you were going to back someone to do what they did, Foreman might just be your bet.

I dont see an old Fitzsimmons as being a much bigger challenge than Frazier who was blasted out twice. I doubt Sharkey or Ruhlin beat Foreman. Corbett would be the toughest trick, but you would have to back to drop corbett like Jeffries did, wouldnt you. It is very arguable that corbett isnt as good as Ali, not as big and certainly not as durable. This leaves the comeback. Given what comebacking George did, I think he would win the strength battle with a prime Johnson and you wouldnt like to bet against him landing a KO punch, would you? It is very arguable that Foreman would have been more impressive than Jeffries.

Even Joe Louis (and not to downgrade him in any way), but Wouldnt foreman have a good chance of doing what he did? I mean for starters, it is hard to see a young Schmelling KOing a young Foreman isnt it? And with the max that showed up, if anyone was going to repeat the Louis Bomb out, it would be foreman wouldnt it? And without Ali to produce an alltime great performance and stop Louis, which of louis opponents would have done the same?

No one can say for sure, but you would think that Conn was the only realistic chance. And i know foreman does tend to tire, but knowing this, isnt likely that Conn is going to get sloppy (like he did with Louis) and trade with Foreman, thus exposing himself to a moorer style trap.

The charles Walcott performances are going to be a huge challenge for Foreman to follow but he showed in old age with his gallant losing effort to Holy that he would not be beyond going the distance with great fighters. And who knows, he has the ability to win a controversial decision like Joe or even produce the upset KO. And last but not least leaves Rocky Marciano who lets not forget, you would think, is stylistically made to order for George Foreman, even the old George Foreman.

Obviously a Jimmy young style slip up is likely to happen at some point in time, but that really is just a hunch. Evidence suggests on a fighter for fighter basis that Foreman could repeat the feat. I think i give him a better chance of doing this, than i give Joe of repeating the wins that Foremand had. All this does strengthen Foreman's claim to the no 1 postion, doesnt it.

surely it isnt as fanciful as the proposition seems at first.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:44 AM   #19
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

In his prime,George was brute force incarnate. I can't envisage any other fighter totally dismantling a slightly passed his prime Joe Frazier in the way that Foreman did. It took a Muhammad Ali to beat him. Second time around,it was indeed a feather in Big George's cap beating Micheal Moorer at age 45.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

I would of wrote

Winning an Olympic gold with only 2 years of boxing under his belt and 20 amateur fights or something

winning the championship knocking down undefeated Frazier 6 times

Winning the title back after a 10 year layoff becoming the oldest heavyweight champion

Much easier...
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

Personally, two achievements MAKE me place Foreman in a special category as a puncher:

a) With no amateur career to speak of, he wins a gold medal on the strength of his power in busting up the Russian.

b) At age 45, he became the oldest heavyweight champion ever, for one simple reason: power. One shot vaporized the reigning young lion Moorer.

George Foreman was nothing special, yet is one of the all-time greats due to one factor alone: as a powerpuncher, he was one-of-a-kind.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theron View Post
I would of wrote

Winning an Olympic gold with only 2 years of boxing under his belt and 20 amateur fights or something

winning the championship knocking down undefeated Frazier 6 times

Winning the title back after a 10 year layoff becoming the oldest heavyweight champion

Much easier...
Beat me to it by 6 minutes!

Neat parallel thinking here, as I was actually going to include the destruction of Frazier as well, out of my huge respect for Frazier as a fighter.

However, Frazier was susceptible to huge punchers, as the Bonavena fights attest. On the other hand, Ringo couldn't close the show. Bottom line: no one ever remotely did what Foreman did to Smokin' Joe.

The above reasons suffice, though.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post
Beat me to it by 6 minutes!

Neat parallel thinking here, as I was actually going to include the destruction of Frazier as well, out of my huge respect for Frazier as a fighter.

However, Frazier was susceptible to huge punchers, as the Bonavena fights attest. On the other hand, Ringo couldn't close the show. Bottom line: no one ever remotely did what Foreman did to Smokin' Joe.

The above reasons suffice, though.
What Foreman did to Frazier was so great that it ultimatley changed Fraziers whole ranking
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

First...you can't say Foreman was "nothing special". Doing what he did shows he was indeed special. Was he the greatest...no....but in his prime he had a physical presence in the ring second to none, truly sledgehammer punches from both fists, iron chin and a tremendous will to win. Add to this killer instinct, add to this a great jab, add to this a great ability to cut off the ring. Ive seen lots of hwts hit a heavy bag...Ive never seen a fighter hit like Foreman hit. Just booming shots. He was an olympic gold medalist, Hwt champion beating an undefeated champion thought to be unbeatable at that time and came back nearly 20 years after winning the championship to rewin it from the true champion.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

Foreman's second career was heavily choreographed, and Foreman himself received many breaks and opportunities simply based of his popularity. Remove the Moorer KO and Foreman's comeback was only so-so in a strictly fistic sense. It was a massive success financially (which is all that really matters at the end of the day), but in terms of achievement not so much.
Getting battered by Holyfield (in a title fight that Foreman didn't earn) was nothing special.
And yes, I agree that Foreman's KO of Moorer was spectacular and a tremendous achievement, but I'm still part of the camp who believes Foreman landed a one-in-a -million shot on a fairly fragile heavyweight not known for the integrity of his chin. Prior to that right howitzer of Foreman's, Moorer was outboxing George cleanly and making George look like a journeyman fighter. And just like with the Holyfield fight, Foreman was given a title shot based more on popularity than anything else. The win would have carried more merit if George had knocked over a top contender to earn the Moorer shot.
Overall, George was a beast; he was a monster in his prime, and even as an older man, he showed tons of heart, grit, and determination; but I think he gets too much credit for his comeback.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: No fighter could do what Foreman did in his career.

His comeback was amazing.
Ten years in retirement, actual retirement, the guy was walking around at 300 pounds plus for a decade with no involvement in the boxing game.

All other fighters who have tried something similar were beaten by one of 'easy mark' type of opponents that Foreman built his winning streak on.
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