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Old 01-02-2013, 10:12 AM   #1
anj
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Default 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTZc0dGjp_Y[/ame]

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- This is where his fans rate Whitaker on ATG list.

I'd like to settle the score once and for all for Oscar doubters. I wrote in threads regarding Oscar, but I'd prefer to collate it all together.
Oscar is greater than what you see on boxrec.

Disclaimer:
I have Whitaker around 20th ish at worst, and Oscar around 30-35th. A lot of what I am doing is making a case for Oscar, it doesn't mean I think he is greater than Whitaker. Whitaker's overall ability is greater.


Oscar's resume
W Whitaker
(will explain later)

W Trinidad (Outlanded ATG Felix Trinidad by almost 150 punches even after Trinidad's domination in the latter rounds where Oscar hardly landed a punch. Oscar was told to run away by his corner to protect his lead).

W Mosley Rematch (Mosley on Steroids. Not Oscar's prime weight, not Mosley's prime weight either - but the steroids helped Mosley with that A win against a roided 2003 version of Mosley is a huge win.

W Roided Vargas (Roided Vargas = one of the very best at 154, beating Quartey and Winky. Not very good after he was busted - Two different fighters. Winky was in better condition for the Vargas fight than the Vasquez fight (the guy who Whitaker beat)).

W G.Hernandez (Genaro was undefeated, prime, only 3lbs heavier than usual, not 5lbs, ATG in his weight class, very underrated)

W Quartey (As the judges officially call it. More people have Oscar winning. Watch the fight closely, were Ike Quartey's jabs even landing as much as you originally thought? I don't think so. The knockdown on Quartey made the difference too.)

W Gonzalez (undefeated, considered as good as J.C.Chavez and Ricardo Lopez at the time. Robbed against J.C.Chavez after the Oscar fight, only because he lacks power to get a KO. He was a finished fighter after his loss to Tszyu, going on to lose against a cab driver a year after).

W J C Chavez (Still a 'good' fighter at the time)

W Casteilljo

W Molina
(defended his title 10 times, got owned by Oscar).

W Leija (Azumah's and the great Espinoza's daddy)

W Gatti

W Carr
W Campas
W Bredahl
W Paez
(Any credit you give to Whitaker beating Paez, you must give to Oscar)
W Mayorga
W Camacho
- This is a STACKED resume, from start to finish. Whitaker's resume - consists of about 6/7 decent fighters, that is all. Most of Whitaker's lightweight wins were the equivalent of Mayweather beating the likes of Juuko at super featherweight.
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Adressing Oscar's 'losses'
'But Oscar lost to Mayweather and Pacquiao'
1. Pacquiao and Mayweather beat the shell of the elite Oscar, not the real Oscar:
a. Oscar's drug problems became even worse, he had depression also as a result - drug use is one thing (Pernell also used to have cocaine), but to put it in the mix with depression is another thing.
b. Oscar's ring age was old, having been in so many big fights with great opposition from the start of his career.
c. We all know he wasn't the same fighter as he used to be.
c. Oscar was 35 years old when fighting Pac.
d. Oscar was drained from 154 to 145lbs catchweight. Understand that Oscar had been fighting comfortably at 154lbs since 2001! 7 years before the fight against Pacquiao.
e. Oscar was severely dehydrated, find out more about how beaten his body was before the fight with Pac. I give Pac the amount of credit I give Calzaghe for beating Roy Jones.
f. Besides, a lot of people have a prime ODLH beating Mayweather.

L Sturm - Who cares? Oscar had no business moving up to 160lbs! He was also past his prime at this point. No wonder why he got KO'd by Bernard Hopkins.

L Mosley I - Legit loss for Oscar, very close fight though. Beat him in the rematch. Personal thoughts:
After winning the rematch against Mosley, Oscar was never the same again. Mentally I believe he became very comfortable with his fame by then, he was getting money that the likes of Mosley and even Mayweather at the time can only dream of. He had life easier. Due to this mental effect, he was no longer in his prime.

Addressing Pernell Whitaker's losses:
PERNELL WHITAKER LOST to Felix Trinidad in the same way Oscar lost to Mayweather/Pacquiao (both past their prime).
Pernell also ARGUABLY lost to Wilfredo Rivera (a guy who Oscar destroyed) and Diosbelys Hurtado - watch the matches if you haven't seen them, then come back to me.

IMPORTANT POINT: Wake up guys, do you really think Whitaker was the same/similar fighter/in the same condition and drive etc. against De La Hoya as he was against Rivera and Hurtado? Do you really think prime Oscar would struggle against a version of Whitaker that arguably loses to these semi-journeymen? That's insulting on a great fighter and one of the fighters that helps Whitaker's own legacy. Whitaker stated he had zero motivation for the Hurtado and Rivera fights, so was sloppy. I don't really hold these arguable losses against him.

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Pernell vs De La Hoya fight
Pernell Whitaker in the Oscar fight looked as pretty much as good as prime in the Oscar fight. Pernell Whitaker in his own words even stated "I couldn't have performed any better" after the Oscar fight. After all, Pernell was still 33 during this fight which is not old by any means for a defensive fighter.
Oscar landed the better shots in the fight, nevertheless I can FULLY understand if people say 'this fight is a draw!'. This fight does a lot for Whitaker's greatness nevertheless. I do agree that Whitaker was 'on the way down' in terms of his performance ability.
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Shane Mosley at Lightweight - Making The Oscar Comparison
We say that Shane Mosley was GREAT @ lightweight. In fact, we say Shane was one of the greatest lightweights of all time. What were Shane's biggest wins? Philip Holiday, JESSE JAMES LEIJA, JOHN JOHN MOLINA. Oh wait, Oscar beat Leija and Molina...both in the same year. Can we give Oscar some of the credit we can freely give to Mosley?

I THINK PERNELL WHITAKER IS ONE OF THE GREATEST ATG'S EVER BY THE WAY.


To conclude:
1. Pernell has the greatest win of the two resumes: Julio Cesar Chavez.
2. Pernell beat ATG Azumah Nelson even though it wasn't in Nelson's prime weight, as well as beating Greg Haugen.
3. Pernell moved up to beat Vasquez.
4. Pernell had an even fight with prime Oscar De La Hoya.

1. Oscar has a better resume, stacked full of great champions from start to finish. He didn't duck anyone, even fighters who were wrong for his style.
2. Oscar was the world champion in 6 different weight classes (should be 5), from super featherweight all the way up to middleweight.
3. Oscar has beaten ATG's and boxers who are ATG's in their weight classes i.e arguable wins over Whitaker, Trinidad, Shane Roid 03' Mosley, Quartey, Hernandez, Chavez, Gonzalez bla bla bla.

Where do you rank him in your all-time rankings?

Last edited by anj; 01-02-2013 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Oscar had an impressive resume no doubt but Whitaker was on a whole other skill level when comparing the two, and ATG's rankings should take into account factors other then just 'wins' ie longevity/losses/general dominance.

IMO Whitaker never really lost until the coked up version got hammered around the ring by Felix Trinidad (yes having seen the fight against DLH again I do believe he got the better of Oscar) this shows what a gifted fighter Whitaker was not to say Oscar wasn't gifted and a great fighter in his own way but he did have losses during his prime (Mosley) and he got KTFO by a weight drained Hopkins.

Last edited by Arcane; 01-02-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:49 AM   #3
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Both are great, but Pea should be ranked far higher.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

I'm not sure how Whitaker "arguably" lost to Hurtado considering he knocked him out.

Pea was also past his best when he fought Oscar but he fought as well as he could, all things considered (I scored it a draw).

I regard Pernell as a more skilled, complete fighter. Oscar has a superb resume but Whitaker also dominated for a long time from 135-147.

I have a lot of daylight between them in my rankings, with Pea somewhere between 13-20 and Oscar outside the top 60.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

I don't do rankings, but Whitaker is streets ahead of De La Hoya.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Pernell > Oscar, period.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henke67 View Post
I'm not sure how Whitaker "arguably" lost to Hurtado considering he knocked him out.

Pea was also past his best when he fought Oscar but he fought as well as he could, all things considered (I scored it a draw).

I regard Pernell as a more skilled, complete fighter. Oscar has a superb resume but Whitaker also dominated for a long time from 135-147.

I have a lot of daylight between them in my rankings, with Pea somewhere between 13-20 and Oscar outside the top 60.
I agree with everything you said. I also had the Pernell-Oscar fight a draw, but only because of the WBC's very questionable point deduction rule. You know, when I fighter is the recipient of an accidental foul and gets cut then the other fighter automatically loses a point. That is why I had the fight a draw, otherwise I would have had Sweet Pea one point ahead.

Also, Pernell played around too much at the end of that fight. He still got the better of Oscar, plain and simple. According to a Las Vegas Review-Journal poll of writers who covered the fight, 14 scored it for Whitaker and 11 for De La Hoya.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Guys, Guys . . . they are similar some people think Pernell is top 10 which is very similar 100 when you add a zero.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:02 PM   #9
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Pernell is well ahead of Hoya without question. Hoya does not belong in the Top 35, Top 50 maybe but im not upset if anyone doesnt have him there either.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

whitaker tko11 hurtado and i have seen it,one of my favorite ko's too the way he kept torturing him with the same punch along the ropes,but i can accept he was behind going into the championship rounds.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Oscar had an impressive resume no doubt but Whitaker was on a whole other skill level when comparing the two, and ATG's rankings should take into account factors other then just 'wins' ie longevity/losses/general dominance.

IMO Whitaker never really lost until the coked up version got hammered around the ring by Felix Trinidad (yes having seen the fight against DLH again I do believe he got the better of Oscar) this shows what a gifted fighter Whitaker was not to say Oscar wasn't gifted and a great fighter in his own way but he did have losses during his prime (Mosley) and he got KTFO by a weight drained Hopkins.
Pernel did not do a damn thing to win that fight vs. Oscar. Oscar fought hard and while Pea made him miss alot, he was still landing alot too, and landed more clean effective punches. Not hard to see Oscar deserved that Win and luckily had semi-decent judges that night. Pea danced that fight away and Oscar took it to him.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdullah View Post
I agree with everything you said. I also had the Pernell-Oscar fight a draw, but only because of the WBC's very questionable point deduction rule. You know, when I fighter is the recipient of an accidental foul and gets cut then the other fighter automatically loses a point. That is why I had the fight a draw, otherwise I would have had Sweet Pea one point ahead.

Also, Pernell played around too much at the end of that fight. He still got the better of Oscar, plain and simple. According to a Las Vegas Review-Journal poll of writers who covered the fight, 14 scored it for Whitaker and 11 for De La Hoya.
Must be the same idiots who had Mosley winning their 2nd fight. Pernel can't back away the entire fight, put more effort in his dance moves than mounting any type of offense and landing more than a jab here and there. Oscar had pernel stunned at least once with a vicious uppercut early on and Pea got scared. The man who lands the most meaninful punches should win any fight and Oscar definitely did that.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:50 PM   #13
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

I can agree with this. Whitaker is a bit overrated for me. So I think this is fair.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Oscar's only legit loss was to Mosley in their 1st fight. That was the only time a prime Oscar was bested and that was due to gassing. When they were both fresh, Oscar was outboxing Mosley.
Forget Sturm, that was a joke. Oscar was so fat it was embarrassing and had no business being in that class or fighting Hops, but did step it up vs. Hops and was outboxing him for the first 4-5 rounds.
Mayweather loss just showed how damn good Oscar was. Mayweather beat him, yes, but that older version of Oscar had Floyd's own corner telling FLoyd to relax and we will catch up to him in the later rounds. Oscar was winning that fight before he gassed.

Just watch Oscar's first few fights and you knew that kid was going to be great. There is nobody like him and unfortunately may have to wait another few decades before we get that type of talent, speed and power on such a chicken legged lightweight. Boxing was lucky to have him.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:08 PM   #15
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Default Re: 'Oscar De La Hoya's ATG ranking is similar to Pernell Whitaker's ATG ranking'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flexb View Post
Oscar's only legit loss was to Mosley in their 1st fight. That was the only time a prime Oscar was bested and that was due to gassing. When they were both fresh, Oscar was outboxing Mosley.
Forget Sturm, that was a joke. Oscar was so fat it was embarrassing and had no business being in that class or fighting Hops, but did step it up vs. Hops and was outboxing him for the first 4-5 rounds.
Mayweather loss just showed how damn good Oscar was. Mayweather beat him, yes, but that older version of Oscar had Floyd's own corner telling FLoyd to relax and we will catch up to him in the later rounds. Oscar was winning that fight before he gassed.

Just watch Oscar's first few fights and you knew that kid was going to be great. There is nobody like him and unfortunately may have to wait another few decades before we get that type of talent, speed and power on such a chicken legged lightweight. Boxing was lucky to have him.
I agree. IMO, the outcome of the May vs ODL fight would have been different if DLH were in his prime.
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